So you decided you want to be a dentist? Think again! As a dentist with several years of experience and more insight into the field, I warn you it may not be the right career path for you. And here are the reasons why dentistry sucks:
1- Dentists are poor.
Yes you heard me right. Gone all the golden age of dentistry when you could see a few patient a day, earn decent amount of money and go home with a big happy smile thinking about how to invest in stocks or real estate. And don't get fooled by young dentists driving Mercedes and BMWs. You don't know how much debt they are under and how longer they can survive before they are all burnt out to pay it off. For many dental students, It's like something you have to do after you graduate, buy yourself a nice car to reward yourself for many years of studying. They can not really afford it and it just adds to their huge debt. All that statistics on dentists having highest salaries are true but it does not tell you at the end of the year how much of it is left for them. You do the math. The cost of education $200,000, the cost of starting a practice $500,000. Average dentist salary $100,000.
2- Stress kills you
Dentistry ruins your mind and body. If you ever had a filling you know how frightening the shot is. Imagine you have to stick a needle to someone's, especially if it is kid, mouth and see them horrified as if you are some kind of a monster. I feel like for every time I do it it my life becomes a day shorter for the amount of stress I have to tolerate. And that's just the needle. We can talk about the drill, the extraction etc. If I had a nickel every time a patient said to me I" hate the dentist" instead of saying Hi when they sat on the chair, I would be rich.
The other aspect of emotional trauma you get from dentistry comes from your employer which pressures you for meeting production numbers and you know if you don't meet their numbers you will lose your job and can not pay your loans. So you end up working like a rat seeing 15 to 30 patients a day running from one chair to the other. If you were working on computers or machines and objects, it was easier because now you are working on people's mouth. They trusted you with the health of their mouth and you face the challenge of taking good care of them while keeping up with the pace. If you own the practice, the situation is not any better because you have your practice business loans to pay plus other responsibilities of managing a business such as lease payments and managing the staff and a lot more.
3- Dentistry is disgusting
Have you ever noticed someone breath stinks when they talk to you? Now you have to bend over their mouth and clean the build-up of all the mess they have not cleaned for a lifetime. Tooth decay, gum infection, dentures, bleeding gums... I leave the rest to your imagination.
4- Physical Trauma
Dentistry ruins your body too. When I opened my own practice after working for someone else for a few years, I was already feeling the pain in my back, wrist and fingers. Yes they tell you you should be careful with your posture and take breaks when you work but it only works in books. You have to bend over a lot and keep your hand in a certain position for a long time. All dentists at some point will feel that chronic trauma. And that's beside the risk of hepatitis infection, HIV etc. It's physically very demanding and eventually takes you down.
5- It's getting worse.
With the changes in economy people don't spend as much on their teeth. Corporate dentistry is growing and private practice dentistry is shrinking. Insurance companies are taking the grip. They pay you a fraction of the fees. If you don't sign up with them, no patients for you. So the rat race begins. Unfortunately, people who are running those businesses are good with business and know how to be efficient and profitable by putting the pressure on employees. The number of dental schools and their graduats are growing faster than the general population. It means you have no option but to take any job you get. And trust me. You are not going to like what you get for the amount of time, money and passion you gave.
Any hope?
Yes. If you are weird and like disgusting things, if you can get enough scholarships and go to a cheap school, meaning you don't have to acquire much debt and if you are not smart enough to do something that gives you better return on investment, or you are so smart that you know how to take advantage of this new growing business model of dentistry, go ahead. Good luck. But if you just like people and want to help people, I am telling you, you won't like yourself.
1715 Comments
Doctor B
4/14/2014 04:21:21 am
Couldn't agree with you more. I thought I would enjoy the prestige of being called a doctor, working good hours, and making a decent living. To say that every occupation is just a job in the end, doesn't give the field of dentistry any justice. It is a very physically demanding job, little job prospects in major cities, money-hungry dentists on very corner that are your competition, and sky-high loans to pay back. You see over-treatment everywhere. Unless you can't envision yourself doing anything else for 30-plus years, find your passion in life. I am trying to pay my loans back early so I can do something I love, and something that doesn't destroy my neck, back and hands everyday. It's either continue practicing and either get surgery and/or disability within the next 5 to 10 years, or get out with my health still in tact.
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doc s
6/21/2015 10:34:23 pm
I totally agree.. i am a dentist to and hav been suffering for a long time.i am actually thinking of a way to get out and do something else but it seems so difficult. I thought i was the only unhappy dentist but its nice to know there are others like me. I just wish i could get a solution to my problem.
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category iii
7/23/2015 01:08:45 pm
I hear all of you. After twelve years, I still owe some student loans but am at the point I'm done with this career. No reward, patients hate you, they'll try to sue you, they don't appreciate anything you do, think of us as car mechanics ("The work you did....not treatment, but work). Lastly, i don't want to die because of the anxiety that you might be hurting someone. I would never recommend this career to anyone
Laureen Jewett
2/21/2018 09:58:25 am
I had no idea that dentists think this way...I have always been on the receiving side...I wish more of dentists would put this out there so we can better understand your feels as well.
Gwen
6/26/2018 08:23:58 pm
Have you figured a way out? I wish I could! Hate being a dentist!
c.e prada
6/29/2019 04:50:51 pm
i totally relate 🤦🏻♀️ Did you find a way out in the end? I would love to hear your story! mayb you have some advise!
roberta simonsen
6/1/2020 12:40:24 pm
I am sorry that you all do not like your prof. I can understand where you are coming from. Hell I can't stand looking in my own mouth, let alone having to doing all day everyday. Shit the only thing i imagine about being a dentist that would be awesome....is having nice teeth and the miens to actually fix any issues that arise. Due to supplies and equipment being onsite. Also after a hard days work maybe hitting the Gas...just kiddin;). I have about 8 teeth left in my mouth. I am 55 years old this year, and I want to smile again and feel alive , Laugh without restraint , I feel constricted , just very unhappy. so hey at least you got nice teeth. anyway hope your lives work out. there is this underlying hope that one of you will live in utah here and help me get teeth. but of course not. I know I am a flake. Peace out guys. Stay safe and well.
Dr. Robert Mchael
7/11/2021 10:04:13 pm
That was the main problem I had when I quit dentistry in 2008:
Joel Olsen
11/7/2022 01:03:22 pm
You know ganser, HE'S A PIECE SHIT DENTIST LIKE ALL YOU ASSHOLES!! NOBODY FUCKING TOLD YOU TO BE A DENTIST!! DO QUIT YOUR FUCKING CRYING ALL YOU FILTHY FUCKING LOOSER DENTIST'S!! FUCKING DIE!!!!
Joel Olsen
11/17/2022 10:50:54 am
YOU DUCK GANSER COCK
Joel Olsen
1/11/2023 07:35:28 am
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS LOOSERS IS THE HIGHEST QUALITY PRODUCT FOR YOU COCKSUCKER'S!!
Dr S
7/16/2019 06:04:13 pm
I agree with u. I've been a dentist for 5 years and i regret going into it. I get paid 12 thousand a month. Three thousand go to taxes, five thousand go to student loans for the next 15 years and i end up with 4 thousand a month. Thats 48 thousand a year. Take off 15 thousand kids day care per year, then health insurance, ada, mda, liability insurance, and i end up with the minimum. Not to mention my moody boss and hard to satisfy patient. This is all depressing. I want to love dentistry, i want to feel fulfilled, but it is not happening. I wish i went into something else, like a desk job where i dont have to talk to anyone. The demand to be better, faster, learn more, know more has stile too much time from my personal life and kids. Once my student loans are paid off, im changing careers
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blaaaaa
7/21/2019 10:31:28 pm
I am sorry but how is your debt 5000 a month for 15 years? thats 900000 in total. What school did you go to?
Dr S
8/4/2019 09:29:49 pm
Hello blaaaa
Dr. Sun
9/8/2020 11:51:12 am
I have you beat... 700k in loans and growing with interest - kill me now. I'm just waiting to see what happens with this election - if they discharge the loans through bankruptcy I am seriously going to consider it. Becoming a dentist is hands down the worst decision I have ever made in my life.
Joel Olsen
11/7/2022 01:07:41 pm
ANOTHER LOOSER DENTIST!! THERE IS REAL DENTIST'S, YOU ASSHOLES DISGUST ME!!
Joel Olsen
11/17/2022 10:55:24 am
And your a piece of AMPHIBIAN SHIT OF A DENTIST!!! BACK IN THE 1900'S WE WENT TO THE OUR BARBER TO PULL A TOOTH, AND NOW IM GOING TO MY FUCKING BARBER!! NOBODY TOLD YOU CRYING COCKSUCKER'S TO BECOME A FUCKING DENTIST!! FUCKING DIE SLOW, FOR JUST BEING A PIECE OF AMPHIBIAN SHIT!!!
Magdalena Smith
11/2/2019 08:01:09 pm
Hi. I know this thread is old, but maybe someone is still reading this... I totally agree with the original text and your comment. I am a Swedish dentist and worked for ten years in Sweden. It was bearable because of the large public sector (nearly half of all clinics). The pay is quite low in the public, but they don't work you too hard. Low study loans help. But now I am observing a different world of dentistry. Due to family reasons we moved to my husband's home country of Australia. I have to pass a heap of expensive and unfair exams. I already wasted a lot of money on them, but feel like giving up. Dentistry here is exactly what you all describe. I could not work like this. There is too many dental schools, too many dentists. They all want to make a killing and rip people off. Really unwelcoming professional community . Very un-Australian. I would love to go back to Sweden and work, but I have no family left there. So I guess I am giving up dentistry and probably will have to go back to school at the age of 43. Better late than never.
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Gator 01
11/3/2019 06:20:18 pm
Hi Magdalena, thank you for the international perspective and best of luck in the future.
Michael
4/5/2020 06:08:26 pm
Hey Gator 01. I would love to get together and talk about this. I am pationate about or profession going downhill. And with that name you can’t be too far
Alex
8/19/2020 07:25:46 am
Hello. I have been a dentist for the last 7 years in UK, London. I still have a passion for this profession and I think that helping people is amazing however is though. In UK most of the pacients are OK but you will eventually run into a person that will sue you. It happen to me and affected me forever. This year I decided to give up dentistry and I started to study floristry. Of course I won't earn the same but I feel free, my mental health improved and I can see my kids growing. I respect all of you that are dentists and love practising but for me it's not a pleasure anymore. It's a defensive dentistry we are doing here and the work is not appreciated.
doctor m
11/27/2020 02:14:12 am
i actually did end up developing something (rheumatoid arthritis) which i can only attribute to the physical and mental stress of this job!
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Fuvkie
6/9/2022 10:43:24 am
Fuck you, ASSHOLE
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Joel Olsen
11/7/2022 01:10:56 pm
FUCKING HILARIOUS!! THANKS, JAGOFF DENTIST'S SUCK BIG MOOSE COCK!!!
Joel Olsen
11/7/2022 01:00:35 pm
You suck dead dog dick and hate you.
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Not Joel Osteen
11/13/2022 07:40:05 pm
Dude your comments are more laughable than intimidating. Don’t you have better things to do than being pathetic?
Joel Olsen
2/12/2023 02:47:48 pm
TO THE LOOSER, who says my comments are laughable? And that I'm NOT JOEL OLSTEEN? YOUR FUCKING RIGHT, IT'S OLSEN ASSHOLE!! AND IF YOUR A LOOSER DENTIST LIKE ALL THE REST, IT'S BECAUSE YOU SUCK AT WTF YOUR DOING!! SO MANY PEOPLE WANT TO BE SOMETHING, THAT THEY CAN'T CUT IT!! SO FUCKING DIE YOU PIECE OF AMPHIBIAN SHIT!!!
-
3/1/2023 07:49:15 pm
real!
Joel Olsen
1/1/2023 12:31:28 pm
Nobody told you to be a dentist, YOU FILTHY FUCKING RAT BASTARDS!! I'M DO GLAD YOUR LIFE SUCK'S BIG HORSE COCK!!!
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Rose Merie's baby
1/30/2023 02:04:32 pm
To the CREATURE who said your not JOAL OLSTEEN? AND HIS COMMENTS ARE LAUGHABLE? I SEEN YOUR FACE!! NOW THAT'S FUCKING LAUGHABLE!! 2/5/2023 03:41:11 pm
To the piece of SHIT, who said DUDE YOUR PATHETIC!! You why DUDE!! I HAVE PERIODONTAL DISEASE!! BECAUSE YOU WINING FUCKING DENTIST'S THAT SLEPT THROUGH CLASS, DUDE!!
GANSER
8/29/2023 04:34:02 pm
Ganser let me WALK OUT WITH INFECTED GUM'S!! FUCKING JAGOFF!!! I HATE THIS COCKSUCKER BECAUSE HE DID IT IN PURPOSE!!'EVERYBODY KNOWS PERIODONTAL DISEASE WILL FUCKING KILL YOU!! SO DIE SLOWLY GANSER YOU PIECE OF AMPHIBIAN SHIT!!
Joel Olsen
1/11/2023 07:34:29 am
You suck, another dentist who didn't pay attention in class!! While my practice is successful!! HA HA ASSHOLES!!
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James
2/11/2023 04:40:07 pm
Your mother suggested that I become a dentist last night. I know you don't have a practice. The only thing you practice is licking ....
Joel Olsen
1/19/2023 03:09:46 pm
YOUR ANOTHER GANSER LOOSER!! THIS PIECE OF AMPHIBIANSHIT SHIT, LET ME WALK OUT WITH GINGIVITIS. BUT I TRUSTED THIS FUCKING MUTT COCKSUCKER!!! AFTER TELLING ME IT COULD BE FROM DRINKING COFFEE? GTFOO YOU JAGOFF!! AND NOW NO ORAL SURGEON'S WILL TOUCH ME!! AND I KNOW SO MANY DENTIST'S, THAT ARE MILLIONAIRE'S YOU BUNCH OF ASSHOLES, WHO COULDN'T HAKE IT!! IT WAS YOUR CHOICE TO BE A DENTIST, AND YOU ALL SUCK AT IT!! LIKE I SUCK AT THING'S, BUT WILL NOT TOUCH ANYTHING IM NOT SURE OF!! AND THIS DR FUCKING GANSER!! HE TOOK 13YRS OF MY LIFE!! DIE SLOWLY GANSER YOU FILTHY FUCKING MUTT RAT BASTARDS!!!
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Dr. Steve
2/11/2023 05:07:39 pm
I can cure your gingivitis. Leave me your number. I make house calls.
Joel Olsen
1/28/2023 10:53:01 pm
YOUR ALL, FILTHY FUCKING LOOSERS!! I'M A MILLIONAIRE 10 FOLD!! QUIT CRYING AND SUCK LARRY LIGHTFOOT'S COCK!! HA HA HA HA HA!!
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Bill Whitehead
9/14/2023 01:51:18 pm
I am a 74 year old retired dentist. I have read a lot of the material and comments on this site. So many of them echo thoughts I have had for years about dentistry. I practiced solo for 37 years. At age 62 I was able to retire from practice and the last 12 years have been great. Whenever I feel a little down I just think about what I would be doing if I were still practicing and I immediately feel happier. All 37 years I would have left dentistry if I could have thought of something that I could have done and paid my bills and supported my family. I'm proud to have gutted it out, but that is a sad life to live. If I were still having to do dentistry to survive economically, I doubt that I would still be alive.
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Doctor G
7/26/2014 01:18:02 pm
I was an engineer 25 years ago and had a dentist friend who always bragged about his professional life. He would say things like "had another $10,000 day today", or accountant was surprised I made only $830,000 last year. I listened to the same BS year after year after year. I finally decided to get my thumb I that pie, and when I did I discovered the world of lies I was subject to.
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Doctor G
7/26/2014 01:42:47 pm
To continue:
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Doctor H
12/24/2014 10:20:03 pm
I'm a dentist with 12-years experience. I've worked as an associate in private practice, as well as in hospital dentistry. I've also owned a solo private practice for a number of years. Of all these options, I must say the latter arrangement was the most profitable & enjoyable for me; however, the type & timing of this deal made ALL the difference.
Dr. B
9/30/2014 02:49:55 am
If you are considering dental school, think again. You can find plenty of blogs that talk about how dentistry is in its 'golden age". You will find plenty of dentists who say that tons of money and love their career. They say that the unhappy dentists are crybabies. But the truth is dentistry is stressful, thankless, penniless and joyless. Considering dentistry? I say...move on. This career will disappoint you. It sux
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Doctor g
4/5/2015 07:52:50 am
I couldn't agree with you more. I've been a dentist over 20 years. I'm unsuccessful and many of my classmates are performing poorly as well. The hardest pill to swallow for me is 28+ years of hard work has yielded nothing more than a mediocre income with no savings and a hand to mouth existence. Dental students for generations have lived on hope and optimism, none of which will pay the bills.
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SeptoLido
8/2/2021 09:08:51 am
DENTISTRY: Doing the impossible, for the ungrateful.
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Doctor C
10/30/2014 03:35:07 am
So true. I think you and the other commentators are right. But you're focusing too much about stress associated with financial issues of being a dentist.
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Beth Dorian
11/1/2016 12:56:02 pm
so so true
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Michael
4/5/2020 05:43:59 pm
Wow can’t believe it took me this long to find this. I graduated in 1989 and after 10 years these have been my thoughts exactly. I am an Endodontists. What bothers me the most is when I went to school all education post graduate was around how to improve the quality of your dentistry and practice. Now it’s all about production and reaching so much a year. Dentistry today doesn’t give a shit about quality it’s all about numbers and Imhave a Big fucking problem with that. Sorry for the foul language
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Not sure if should be a dentist
10/2/2020 12:34:13 pm
I am 25 year old woman and I am still not sure if I want to be a dentist. I am torn between starting my own company or pursuing dentistry. I like the title of Dr. I am supposed to take my dat but I am seeing the true nature of being a dentist and its a bit off putting to say the least. I am not here to insult anyone I am just a truth seeker. I am pretty financially stable and I am pretty business savvy. I was willing to accept the challenge of becoming a dentist snd having my own practice but for me to crunch numbers and be in the pressure to pay business loans could cloud my judgement and it feels unethical to me. So now I am leaning more to becoming an entrepreneur.
Jane Smith
11/4/2023 12:56:17 pm
The thing is… It’s really hard to have sympathy for the profession when all the local dentists live in great big mansions, drive the newest of cars, the females are more plastic than the bitches coming out of Silicon Valley, and are constantly on some kind of tropical vacation or jetting around the world posting it all on socials for the whole world to see their extravagant life…
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Jewish Dentist
1/14/2015 09:48:54 pm
I like to grope women under sedation and I give out prescriptions for narcotics in exchange for sex. I love being a dentist.
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Gregsthick
1/20/2015 08:36:45 am
Ahh, a kindred spirit.... my favorite time to grope is when they are in that hazy state while still coming out of sedation. Can't think of a better way to make that $500/day ;)
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gwen eaker
7/18/2017 08:36:47 am
Lol
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1/26/2015 09:43:19 pm
Think again! As a dentist with several years of experience and more insight into the field, I warn you it may not be the right career path for you. And here are the reasons why dentistry sucks:
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dr.dentist
3/20/2019 11:48:01 am
I have loved helping people but the way we are treated has been very trying
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Victor
7/3/2015 10:59:42 pm
So true!!! This is the best blog I have come across that truly reflects what is going on in the field of dentistry!!! Dentistry is so highly competitive now that it really is not worth doing anymore. I feel more like a marketer than a doctor nowadays since I have to do so much marketing and advertising just to stay competitive with dentists down the streets. It is not worth it anymore to be a dentist.
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doc s
7/5/2015 03:46:16 pm
Ya. I agree too. But can no one tell me a way out of this profession..
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Dr G
7/21/2015 10:38:27 am
If you new to dentistry and single I would definitely consider the military and specializing. The few military dentists I know moved over to the VA after retiring and have joined the National Guard. They are living very comfortably with a lot of security. The military life was very stressful on the family however.
Russell Gibson
8/4/2015 06:34:26 am
This is for all Dentists that think that the white plastic filling and what ever is part of it. Which I do not know the total composite.
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Dentist Z
2/24/2016 10:01:09 am
See, this is good example. We constantly have to deal with uneducated patients such as Russell that can barely write a proper sentence but somehow believe they know more than the dentist.
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Dr. Lauren
11/10/2016 12:27:20 am
This person needs to take some pliers, pull all his teeth out, and never set foot in a dental office...Jesus....
Dentistry Sucks
10/4/2018 03:22:47 pm
I had a patient nag about how much a crown cost him. I think it was $700. I told him to get his son to go to dental school and do it for him. It would only cost him $700,000.
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C.H.
2/14/2020 09:57:09 am
See that right there is what most dentist do not understand and that is that we are not hateful or angry at the majority of dentist (the greedy scummy douchy dentist yes but not the other 80% of yall) by any means but the outrageous cost of even the smallest procedure. The mass majority of patients are paycheck to paycheck people. Yall talk about the dentistry industry like its some unique case by employers working its ppl to the bone, being absolute and utter d-bags, every day feels like going to work and just being a human punching bag/toilet for the epic scummy tyrant running the show, on top of that employers almost always go with the best insurance dental and health for themselves and the absolute cheapest worst insurance for the rest of the employees which in a lot of cases only allows like 1200 per year in dental work everything out of that is straight up out of pocket and the prices are insane... thats what the patients are angry at not you guys at least for the most part. Yall complain that patients have bad teeth etc etc but 9/10 times its because we have put off coming to the dentist letting issues get worst and worst due to only one reason we cant afford it. Granted yes there are a lot of people out there that are just straight up punk bia a-holes that just need to be taken out back and shot rather than roam the earth taking their miserable life out on others. Bottom line is the whole dentistry thing is not unique thats how every shitty crap job seems to be these days. The only people actually making enough money to not feel crappy are the top of the food chain owners and such... the sorry sacks of crap who do nothing except sit around bark orders and treat ppl like shit for no other reason than that they can knowing that employees will take it cause of the fear of being out of work. Yea yall have student loans but so do many of us from college only to get out after college and cant get a job in our field because these scumbag employers want to pay everyone college degree or not the same thing. So outside of the few dont take it so personally about patients being angry cause the honest truth is they are angry/stressed about having to get something done costing an arm/leg which results in insane amount of stress cause that money is being taken away from a car payment. rent, or some other very important bill either that or facing the alternative of severe debilitating pain and no way to do anything about it.
AD
12/24/2018 08:19:34 am
Dentistry is hard because of people like you. If you get a heart attack at a restaurant, do you blame the chef?
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Watson
8/22/2019 11:21:56 pm
Go whine to somebody who cares! You loony whiny cry baby
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Joel Olsen
11/7/2022 01:20:00 pm
WELL DR, AND I USE DR VERY LIGHTY!! 13 FUCKING YEAR'S AGO, DR GANSER DON'T KNOW WTF GINGIVITIS IS OR ANY FUCKING GUM DISEASE!! IT TOOK 20 G
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Dr. A
8/9/2015 11:00:56 pm
I totally agree! My back and wrist hurt everyday even when I am not working on that day. I got paid based on production, so I have to see as many pts as I can. However, it is just tough....
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Predental Student.
11/25/2015 09:28:53 pm
I went through this blog because I really need help in deciding if I should go for dentistry or not. Living in an Asian family, I am being forced to go to dental school and I have been explaining to them that I can't make it. My family really think that benign a dentist will help me become rich. They say thay they had friends who makes 1-8 millions a year. Can somebody tell me if this is true or not?
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Dentist Z
2/24/2016 10:03:20 am
Oh I'm sure there are a few dentists out there that do indeed make that much but they are the extreme exception to the rule and most likely earn that much via less than scrupulous way. If you are in dental school and are already feeling this way then QUIT NOW!! It is YOUR life, not your parents.
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Dr. No $$$$$
3/4/2019 12:21:03 pm
Please do not let your parents make you do any profession, listen to the blogs you are reading, they are real. About being a million-air as a dentist, not going to happen. The only way to get rich in dentistry is to fuck over the insurance companies and your patients. That I DONT suggest. Dentistry is hard and expensive. Finally, I had a classmate who was Asian and parents made him do dentistry and did not accept his girlfriend cause she was catholic, so sadly to report to you, my classmate committed suicide only 4-5 months after graduating. So please reconsider your career path. If I could do it all over again I would be a golfer!!!!!!!
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Ugh.
2/14/2020 10:03:30 am
From what I get there are some that make a really good living but sadly at least for patients and their employees those dentist are the most awful tyrannical greedy scum of the industry. They are the type of dentist you never want to work for and the reason dentist in general get such a bad rep from patients. You do not want to be one of these people... yea they make a lot of money but all in all they just seem like angry, hate filled, life hating people.
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Dr g
11/26/2015 03:35:51 am
You will not earn1-8 million dollars as a general dentist in the United States. You might get close to $1 million if your a very successful specialist in a thriving economic area. Remember there are no guarantees you'll reach that level of success or that you can maintain it. Your family means well, but chances are their dreams are not going to materialize. There is so much BS floating around regarding salaries on the Internet, some people wrongly assume people will throw money at you because your a dentist. Definitely not true.
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Jimmy
2/27/2016 12:35:03 pm
Ive been out 10 years and make about 750,000 as a general dentist. You can do quite well if you are not an idiot. There is much more to making money in dentistry than doing a decent resin.
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Dr g
2/28/2016 08:18:47 am
Then 99.99% of dentists on the planet must be complete idiots, because $750,000 net income is remarkable especially for a new practice staring in the current economy. Write a book tell me how to net $750k in dentistry. I'll buy one for each of the 200 dentists I know and would like to thank you ahead of time-thank you. By the way if your talking about $750k production your misleading, because I'm thinking you've got to be producing close to 1.8-2 million $ to net $750,000. I guess it's possible if your capable of collecting $175,000 per month. I just don't see how - please fill me and the other readers in. Thank you.
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Category iii
2/11/2017 09:49:27 am
Of course he won't tell you because he's full of shit. In Chicago, one of the most lucrative practices grossing $2million made the dentist $600k net. That's a lot of money. According to the largest midwestern brokerage firm, n the top 1 of 1%. $750 k net and has the nerve to call us idiots....da fuq outta here
Ladies and Gentlemen,
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Dr g
4/29/2016 03:40:42 am
Hello, I read your post and I found it remarkable. I probably heard it 1000 times in my career. You need to know from a technical perspective dentistry is a wonderful career. It's not until the technically minded dentist has to intermingle business and personalities into the success formula that we sometimes see the plan fall apart.
Toothman
11/6/2016 10:36:04 am
Practiced dentistry for 24 years.Did the best that I could do everyday at the office.You are having a hard time finding a dentist because you really need a god who makes no human errors.I feel sorry for the next dentist who gets you in the chair.It is way way way harder than you think.I suggest you either suck it up or heavily sedate and keep your ignorance to yourself.No dentist in their right mind would want you as a patient knowing how you feel and critique his or her work.
Dr. Lauren
11/10/2016 12:38:15 am
I agree with Toothman....you would be a nightmare to have to treat. Actually, after reading this, I wouldn't even waste the time trying.
Dentist1234
8/7/2017 09:31:34 am
L., not gonna lie, you sound like a total pain in the a**. Good luck finding a general dentist. Perhaps Jesus or one of the 12 is fixing teeth in your area. I'm sure you will be handled perfectly.
Cypress
11/23/2017 06:53:06 am
Lol what an idiot
Eric T. Gott
7/5/2018 09:41:27 am
The reason you have been to 5 dentists in 4 years is quite obvious. Just look in the mirror.
Dentistry Sucks
10/4/2018 03:31:20 pm
If you came into my office, I would charge you $4000 for just a cleaning. The anxiety of having to deal with you would drive me, my hygienists, my assistants, and my front desk NUTS.
AD
12/24/2018 08:42:46 am
Here is my ANSWER. I hope I never see you as a patient. Your feelings are real but your expectations are unrealistic. The only way for you to truly understand is to become a dentist, but I guess that’s unrealistic too
Dr. no $$$$$
3/4/2019 12:42:17 pm
Being a 14 year dentist and the others out there, most but not all would agree that we treat our patients like they treat us. Im to old to kiss any patients ass and bend over backwards to be your dentist. However, patients that respect me and my staff get the same courtesy back. Once the respect is mutual then all the other parameters fall into place. I would say only 50 % of my patients and me are on the same page. The other 50% are liars, rude, unrealistic, cheap, and have poor attitudes. One patient came in as a new patient and said, "I hate dentists". I laughed under my breath and replied back, "yea, I hate patients"! He just looked at me like I was crazy. With out mentioning all the details, I just told I didn't want to help him with his dental issues and referred him to the dental school to special patient care. We are just sick and tired of the attitudes that many patients bring to the office, With all due respect, if you have been to 4 dentists in the past 5 years then maybe you should look yourself in the mirror and ask why? Because if you came to my office and told me that, I would refer you to the dental school as well. And as far as your temporary crown coming off, don't worry about. As the name implies, Temporary.
Dr LSU
2/11/2020 05:03:08 pm
I am curious as to your expectations from your dentist. Does the MD who treats your fibromyalgia personally text you, or Personally provide you with extra pillows upon your request. Are these expectations you seek from your MD? Or do you ask the RN or the assistant? Are the expectations that the dentist should fluff your pillows like you are at the resort and when minor complications occur you expect your dentist to call you as if you are the only patient this dentist has, in his entire practice? Did you stop to think he may be texting because he has an office full of other patients who also expect to be treated as if they are the only patient in the world? His texting expresses an opportunity to demonstrate he cares, while handling other things concurrently.
Dr F
6/19/2020 06:07:09 pm
I had a patient with fibromyalgia during my residency. Due to her persistence I actually did a filling on a tooth with no decay. The bottom line is that you're the problem. You need to go to your physician and get help... then find a dentist. Otherwise you'll never be happy. Oh and by the way... you probably have a good relationship with an endodontist because you've had a number of unnecessary root canals done.
Dr R
5/18/2016 08:01:33 am
I like the technical aspect of dentistry. After doing this for 12 years now, owning my own solo practice, I've got to the point where I'm tired of trying to please every single person and their every single whim. I think we all try very hard to make sure that the experience is as pleasant as possible, but frankly it's not reality to expect to be able to please every single person. It's exhausting to try! I really don't sleep well, I'm always thinking about the coming day and what I need to do. If there is a demanding patient I'm way happier of they just decide to seek treatment elsewhere. I also have found out that very rarely do the demanding patients stay with any one dentist very long. Soon that new dentist will do or say something "wrong" and the cycle starts over again. So I don't really take it too personal when someone leaves the practice anymore. Most patients do value what we do and are appreciative when we help them out. A few bad apples absolutely do ruin the whole lot! I have great concern for the future of dentistry, both on the patient side and on the debt side. A crisis is coming!
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Dr TCA
6/22/2016 03:50:25 pm
I am in my 7th year of owning a practice, which I paid top dollar for and found out later I over paid by 300K and then the lying older greedy dentist tried to work and said a non-compete was not enforceable and then I caught him bashing my reputation on yelp, very very ugly. The broker who was a dentists as well pulled the rug over my eyes and basically lied as well about this great practice that I bought for $880K that is right that is what I paid for a practice that sucked and was worth more like $600K. Dentistry is a complete lie and is probably the worst profession you could be in. I am 46 and have a 30 year student loan payment on 436K, are you kidding me. What a mistake, btw now I am stuck, how am I going to find a new profession to pay my $10K monthly debt, really what a mistake. Last year one of the news services listed Dentistry as a great profession I just laughed when I read that. It is a a total tail spin and is basically all lies. If you want to suffer have no money, hate your job, and suffer money wise go into dentistry, avoid it all costs. I hope to get out of it as soon as I can.
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Jeff
10/25/2018 01:06:04 pm
Yep, sounds like my own experience. I didn’t pay that much for my office but it was definitely a POS when I took over and I have managed to get it to a good state now after almost 5 years but the experience has definitely soured me on the economics of dentistry and what we (old vs. you g dentists, brokers) do to each other just for some bucks. I have managed to pay off all of my debt in a short time by being extremely frugal but I definitely won’t do this again if I had another choice. Is field is going down fast and I predict in 10-15 years it will be in the gutters. It is already on a fast downward slide and the newbies just getting into school or graduating now are complete idiots. Woe to be them.
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B.B.
7/4/2016 07:24:17 pm
After 10 years, All I have to say is I so do regret, everyday, being a dentist. My health starts to lack (Neck, joints, hand pain), can't sleep, always tyred and sick of demandig, rude patients everyday...patients have no respect for The human and profissional you are. And by now I can't even enjoy My life, Have a family, only because I have to work work work to pay All The bills... It destroys You slowly, with no way back. Young sometimes make people smile, but they'lo take yours, away!!
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Dr. no $$$$$
3/4/2019 12:51:35 pm
B.B, agree with you, dentistry SUCKS! its no fun anymore. Patients really are fucked up these days. Most drug seekers, rude, liars, and shitty attitudes. Thank God my body has not failed me. But the unhappiness is starting to take a toll on my attitude and I don't like it cause Im a pretty chilled laid back person. My temper has become very short with patients and care factor out the window. Im lucky to have 2-3 good days a month where patients appreciate and or thank me.
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DocK
7/28/2016 11:07:42 pm
Going on my 28th year in practice, going to dental school was the worst decision of my life. Like others have pointed out, it's a highly stressful job, often thankless. And it is very delicate work as well, full of pit-falls, any steps that are not perfect, treatment can fail. Another thing is, prior to actually getting onto the clinic in dental school, there is just no way to know whether or not you have "good hands" to become a proficient dental surgeon. And if you you don't, there really isn't any remedy, you can only improve so much with practice. But by then, you've invested so much time and money it's really no going back.
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DrT
8/2/2016 09:14:46 am
I agree as well. I have been practicing twenty years and I still have trouble sleeping the nights before work. Highly stressful job and patients expect perfection without realizing that we are working in a small, far from perfect environment. I took extended time off recently and felt much better. Back to work for the last six months and all the aches, pains and anxious feelings have returned. I have to figure out a way to make a permanent career change as I see no point in doing this to myself for the next twenty years.
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DocR
8/3/2016 07:27:13 am
Dr T
The Rat Race
6/4/2018 01:22:08 pm
The problem is that we just can't walk out and quit. We have debts upon us that go on FOREVER and there is no way out. I'm at the point after 29 years of this shit that I'm about to have a nervous breakdown. I hate dentistry so much and I can't believe I wasted 8 years of my life training to be in the worst profession in the world. I set out to make a good living and I'm totally broke and will not have a retirement because it costs a damn fortune to keep one of these torture chambers open. It has made me hate people because they hate us first, don't want to pay us, the employees are a nightmare, insurance is a nightmare, and the sad thing is we have to keep our misery to ourselves because if we rant, then people will think you are crazy, unreasonable and they just can't relate to the emotional, financial, and physical torture we go through. I am right now seeking legal counsel on how to escape this HELL and still have a meal on the table the next day. No one should ever step foot into dental school until they have worked in a dental office for a minimum of 3 years.
DentistM
6/6/2020 01:00:34 pm
This is such a great thread , finally other dentists who feel the same as me. I only graduated 3 years ago but I already hate this progression and I don't want to really continue. Has anyone tried retraining to do something else ??
Dave
6/30/2017 05:15:41 pm
I decided to apply to dental school as a career changer in my mid 30s, but was worried about whether I had the hand skills and artistic ability to succeed as a dentist. I also wanted to know whether I'd enjoy doing that kind of detailed work. I shadowed my general dentist but didn't get much out of it (I couldn't even see 90% of what she was doing).
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Dr. no $$$$
3/4/2019 01:00:15 pm
Dave, you made a VERY wise choice to reject your acceptance letter. Be glad your not one of us! Health care, in my opinion, is the worst professions anyone can do. WHY? Most Patients SUCK! But not ALL. Enough of them to make you hate your job! I got 3-4 more years then im out. Gonna go live somewhere warm and do minimal work, not sure what ill do but ill do something I enjoy!!!
DrT
8/6/2016 07:49:46 am
DocR, I was an associate, so I just decided to leave the position and take a long break. Fortunately I had basically taken care of my debt in the past when I did have my own practice. Lived on a portion of my savings during my break but could not retire so I had to get back to it. I am an associate again since I wanted to have the ease of exiting the profession easier if/when that time comes. Good Luck.
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8/28/2016 02:41:28 pm
I agree with all of you.Our state governments need to do something about dental school debt and PPO problem before we no longer have any dentists.It will not take many generations before young people decide that dentistry just isn't worthwhile.I recently retired after 24 years and I am disgusted with the economic stresses that new dentists have to face.Every new dentist needs to live well below their means and tell the insurance companies to eat shit.Only then will they begin to take control of their future.Dentistry is a honorable profession and fair compensation for all your hard work should not be dictated by some idiots who run a PPO .
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Dentistry Sucks
10/4/2018 03:47:46 pm
The number of students needs to be dramatically reduced by 80%. A new screening process needs to be implemented. Those that pass should be given government assistance to go into this HORRID profession such that the debt is limited to less than $30,000. This profession is more mentally damaging than being on the front line in Afghanistan. Anyone remaining after 20 years of service to the community as a private practicing dentist should be well paid ($300,000/year) and receive a purple heart ceremony.
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It's all true
8/31/2016 10:04:53 am
All the dentists here have spoken truth. Under the guide and protection of anonymity, we can admit our profession sucks now because of long-standing system factors, like opening (private, for-profit) schools and increased number of dentist graduates, shrinking dental insurance reimbursements, prior generation of dentist s' culture of entitled greed, corporatization and commoditization of dental services, the weakness and ineffectualness and lack of leadership in regulatory boards....all these things..it makes you deflated and sad.
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Dr g
9/21/2016 11:19:54 am
I like the fact you brought up dental schools. Though they are a great place to learn and I hold the instructors in very high regard, the truth is I don't believe the schools could function without the financial support of the vendors and suppliers. The corporate giants producing the dental products are pouring cash into the programs to create a generation of consumers of their products. Its a very deceitful approach because the dental student is isolated from the financial truth of the dental profession from day one.
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Dr F
6/19/2020 06:17:36 pm
I don't hold the instructors in high regard... at least the full timers. There's a saying... "those who can, do... those who can't, teach." That was my experience with the full time faculty at my school. One prof spent hours evaluating and improving upon my waxing up of a gold crown. I graduated in 2014. Give me a fucking break... take your gold crown wax-up and shove it up your ass. Dental schools have been jacking up tuition like crazy; state governments have taken away medicaid dental insurance so it makes getting experience difficult for students. And now almost all new grads need to work in evil corporate dentistry if they don't know anyone. Dentistry is laughable.
Dr. Jim
10/17/2016 11:38:52 am
Dentistry is a very demanding business model. We are trained to be perfectionists then work on people who only judge you on your injection. Retiring at the end of this year with no sadness at all. Be sure to pay yourself as you go because a dental practice is not worth what it once was. Tell all the young kids who ask you what to do with their lives to become engineers.
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Dr g
10/17/2016 02:17:13 pm
Good advice! Then get a law degree to represent engineering / energy firms. Dentistry is peanuts and the young people need to learn that before they've vested their future.
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Fred
10/21/2016 10:38:58 am
Here's how it works:
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DR. no $$$$
3/4/2019 01:07:34 pm
Fred, I must disagree with you about dentists who are in academics are failures. Many of them are out of private practice cause they are tired of the bullshit and the rude asshole patients. One of my professors quit private practice solely because of that reason and is a very good dentist. I feel the same way, I may quit the profession all together because most patients suck!!!!
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Dental Student
11/3/2016 10:36:23 pm
I'm in my first semester of dental school and I'm worried I'm making a big mistake. I'm looking at graduating with 250K+ in debt (that's without the ever-growing interest) and I don't even know if I will enjoy being a dentist. I didn't realize that emotional stress was so common and so high in dentistry, not to mention the physical stress and other occupational hazards. I was originally interested in being an associate for a private practice or working in a public health setting. I know I couldn't handle the stress of owning a practice, and I would like the ability to move around. Now I keep hearing about the massive influx of corporate - I even see chains in small towns now - and the growing threat of midlevels, plus the increase in class sizes, more schools opening, and obviously the huge student debt burden. I'm worried dentistry will soon go the way of pharmacy: stressed out slaves to corporate that barely have time for bathroom breaks. I was attracted to dentistry by the comfortable salary, work-life balance / good hours, and relative stability (won't be outsourced at least!). Now it seems that those are all disappearing. I also want to help people, but I know there are other ways to do that. I am a smart, capable, and kind person. I need to decide if I should get out now or stick with it and hope that things will be okay - that there will be student loan reform, laws to better police corporate chains, etc. I am very worried. Thoughts from any/all current dentists are much appreciated!
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Fredo
11/4/2016 07:37:16 am
A tough decision, but don't make that decision based solely on what I and others have written here. The question you need to ask yourself is WHY you want to be a dentist. If you love teeth and mouths and are totally fascinated by the idea of working in that area, then stay in school and your love for the profession will get you through the negatives (and ALL professions have negatives). However, if you are doing it for the MONEY, or because SOMEONE ELSE said it was a great career, or you just don't know, GET OUT NOW.
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DJ
11/5/2016 02:32:00 pm
I think group practice would be better for you.Being an associate is a hard way to pay off debt.Pressures of solo practice are more spread out amongst partners if you can find the right situation.Ideally try to find an older senior dentist wanting to retire in less than 5 years and a younger dentist besides yourself with 20 plus years to go.Be confident in yourself, but do not let the debt get out of hand.Start looking now for locations where you would like to spend the next 30plus years.Visiting with groups in those locations as soon as possible.It really comes down to personalities.If it does not feel right,then visit with another group.Do not wait until the 11th hour to start thinking about where you would like to live.These things take time and even if some groups are not looking to expand right now,if you find an ideal practice and location you might get the senior dentist to start thinking about his or her future.I would get in touch with a broker such as AFTCO and they can give you plenty of ideas.All of us were in your shoes at one time.If you plan in advance, it will work out.Do not get suckered into a last minute decision in 4 years because you have to start paying debt.PLAN AHEAD.Good luck and God bless!
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Dr. T
10/2/2018 09:05:00 am
Get out now. After 34 years, I wish I had worked in genetics, pharma , anything with a decent wage , paid leave, and 401K
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Carl
11/4/2016 04:43:11 pm
This is an old post, but still relevant. I wish I had become an engineer. I became a dentist for the money, but with the level of debt, my lifetime earnings after taxes and loan payments will only even catch up to what they would have been as an engineer when I am in my fifties. And I hate working on humans.
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QD
11/29/2016 03:53:38 pm
Quit Dentistry!
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GB
11/29/2016 03:59:37 pm
Sooooooooooooooooo Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddd (!)
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QD
11/29/2016 04:01:45 pm
If a dentist in the woods QD's and no one is around, does he/she make a sound?
hd
12/23/2016 05:32:55 am
I agree with everything been said in this post. Dentistry is highly stressful/demanding/ job, I very much regret being a dentist ... will not let any of my kids become a dentist . I need to change my career after 12 years of practice before I either go mad or physically disabled.
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Categoryiii
12/28/2016 10:29:47 am
As I've noted before, dentistry sucks. Negative Yelp reviews, patients that can't be appeased, lack of respect, financial nightmare, etc. I was lucky enough to have come from a European country in which I can emigrate back to. As a matter of fact, have decided to do so this year....walking away from my office with a full schedule (not telling patients or staff anything) , punting student loans, never looking back. Good riddance
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Scott
4/19/2017 05:21:10 am
So...did you do it?
Doctor H
1/13/2017 11:41:07 am
Categoryiii: Do you plan on just giving your practice with a full schedule and a staff away, or trying to sell it somehow?
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Categoryiii
2/11/2017 09:55:48 am
Of course, I'll see what I can get and list it. But I'm not gonna let it hold me back. I have a seven month timeline after which. I'm selling everything on Craigslist and then....poof..I'm gone
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4/19/2017 10:24:46 am
Choosing a family dentist is one of the most important healthcare decisions you'll make for your family. Here are tips to help you select the best dentist for your family's needs.
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Linda
4/24/2017 04:30:27 pm
I have worked with my husband who is a dentist for many years. He shares many of these same sentiments. For those of you out there who say they want to leave practice, have any of you done so, and what are you doing now?
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Dr G
4/29/2017 05:34:11 am
There aren't a lot of opportunities for dentists outside of private practice settings. But there are some! I quit the private practice of dentistry about 6 years ago to work in the prison system. That move saved my life. Prison dentistry is EASY. Patients are generally very appreciative, they recline in a comfortable chair, enjoy the air conditioning for 30 minutes while having a tooth restored. Everyone wins in this setting. I've probably treated 2000 inmate patients in my life and I can count on one hand the number of guys who didn't say "...appreciate you..." at the conclusion of the appointment. I've treated 10 times that number in private practice and 99% of those patients don't seem to appreciate anything or anyone in the office.
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Linda
4/29/2017 01:24:27 pm
Thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail. I will share this with my husband.
Dr. Pham
4/30/2017 02:08:37 pm
Are you part of the Fed Prison or State Prison system? I spent the past 2 years applying for the USPHS (a long and bureaucratic nightmare of an application) only to get rejected at the end because of an insignificant medical condition. That's the fedGov for you. I was thinking about joining the Fed prison system, but I know that if you aren't a USPHS officer, the other USPHS prison dentists look down on you. Is this in any way true?
??
1/17/2019 01:35:40 pm
Is there any way to communicate with you in a private message?
Dr. Ph
5/2/2017 02:34:56 pm
Anyone work for the Federal Prison system as a Dentist? I spent the past 2 years applying for the USPHS (a long and bureaucratic nightmare of an application) only to get rejected at the end because of an insignificant medical condition. That's the fedGov for you. I was thinking about joining the Fed prison system, but I know that if you aren't a USPHS officer, the other USPHS prison dentists look down on you. Is this in any way true?
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Dr G
5/2/2017 05:40:26 pm
Sorry for not answering earlier. I'm in state prison. I don't know anything about the federal bureau of prisons or the dentists employed by there. But just an FYI - some dentists are a pretty condescending, so I wouldn't be surprised if they look down on the new guy trying to get in.
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Linda
5/3/2017 05:04:13 am
Just wondering.......do you think it's difficult to get into the system at the age of 55+? Do they frown upon drs wanting to work their last 10 15 yrs with them? Do they only want younger drs?
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Dr g
5/3/2017 03:14:15 pm
Maturity is definitely not a liability in the prison setting. States prefer older dentists because they know they will never obtain retirement benefits and frequently don't need insurance benefits after 65. Downside is if you're not in good shape physically prison probably not a good place. It will be probably 10-15 minute walk to the car from your office and gasping for air isn't looked at favorably in prison.
Linda
9/22/2017 03:29:31 pm
I was looking at the federal prison dentist requirements..."Experience treating and managing facial trauma including fixation of closed jaw fractures and identifying and referring more complicated damage".....will they only take oral surgeons? should general dentists even bother applying?
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Dr g
9/23/2017 05:14:55 am
There are always misleading requirements in the employment ads. The people placing the ads have NO concept of medical and/or dental cases you'll be treating, or treatment protocols.
l
6/13/2018 12:48:27 pm
can you contact me? I need to ask about this site. thanks
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Srijani sarkar
5/15/2017 11:35:13 am
It really sucks.. Everything in it..
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Screaming into the Void
5/16/2017 10:51:52 pm
I am glad that I found this blog. I have been fighting wth myself on whether it is worth it to become a dentist. I saw everything through rose tinted glasses and thought that dentistry would set me up for life. I used to think that the best students went on to become doctors and lawyers. Now I realize it's just for those that are willing to be in debt for +10 years and potentially never crawl out of it. God, these posts are so bleak and realistic. Just because I still enjoy the dental setting I'll try to get a bachelors in hygiene. (Maybe while I'm young and naive I can convince a person or two how wonderful dentistry is so that there are a few less people in the world with disrespect for the profession) Alas, the hygienists seem just as done with their jobs. Apparently an oversaturated job market and it being next to impossible to work full time. What's your take on this Doctors?
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Dr g
6/27/2017 05:03:49 pm
The most valuable hygienist is in my opinion someone who grew up and lives near the dental office. She (yes a women, male hygienists are professionally useless in my opinion) is married to a well respected member of the community, has several kids and participates in community functions. She is a great source of referrals. Being the best and most valuable hygienist has nothing to do with anything learned in hygiene school. Great hygienists know how to network and refer patients to the office.
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Dentistry Blows
7/14/2017 12:07:36 pm
All comments here are spot on. Dentistry is dead unless you want to make money over-treatment planning people who will pay. I have never done that and will never, and that's why I'm leaving the profession. What will I do? I don't even know, but I sure as hell know that if I could study worthless college courses to the top of my class, get into and survive dental school, put up with rude patients for 8 years without killing myself,.....I CAN DO ANYTHING. Dental school is a complete scam and is as dead as pharmacy, and it will not return. And trust me I AM GOOD AT IT and most patients love me. If my kids EVER say they're going into medicine of any kind,...Daddy will be forced to punch them in the face. I'm thinking of building shacks outside of every dental school in the country advising new students why they should NOT be a dentist. The dental schools can then pay me multiple millions to take the shacks down. See? I've already got money making ideas! Thank you all for sharing your experiences, so many blogs are just BS "dentistry is great" garbage. Good luck to everybody out there in the profession.
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categoryiii
8/4/2017 09:47:18 am
My favorite are the idiots who sign up for Pankey Dawson shit and then scratch their heads when they realize no one even has money to spend on one crown. Freaking joke. Thousands of dollars to scam people out of occlusion schemes that make a difference, sure, but not full mouth reconstructions. The cost of CE is ridiculous and the 2008 recession on wards illustrated how elective all of dentistry truly is
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Jeff
10/25/2018 01:22:39 pm
The CE costs in our field is truly ridiculous. If you look in that Dentaltown board that entire site is basically one huge advertisement. People who claim they do well and they try to put together a cookie-cutter course to scam more money out of their “colleagues.”
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Former Doc
8/21/2017 03:02:58 pm
Honestly I'm glad I dropped out when I did. I was sick of how many lies dental school administrators gave on top of promises they couldn't keep. I couldn't take it.
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Yet a dentist
9/12/2017 05:04:30 am
I'm glad i find this blog! I'm still a dental student for more than 1,5 years now the thoughts of having to wait for patient, the teacher, the anxiety, I still don't like it even it is not as bad as my first time doing at clinic i was diagnosed having anticipatory anxiety. I still havent finished my half of my req, and atill having the thought if this the right path to do.. seeing the senior who graduate also struggling to find work after.. not to mention the stress, mentally and physically, i have had tendonitis, I often get sick this past year, i become gloomy and sensitive like I know this is I'm not used to be! I hate dentisty yet I don't know what to do!
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Linda Stratford
9/12/2017 05:20:08 am
If you like the dentistry but not the business, think about joining the military upon graduation. Private practice requires an "all in" optimistic attitude. There are dentists who love what they do and thrive on the business aspect as well. Others, not so much.
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Dr G
9/12/2017 07:41:55 am
Dentistry is not worth the anxiety you're experiencing. The most difficult part of dentistry is the judgement by others. Its out of your control and every new face is your judge, whether is an insurance company or a patient. Don't let the "allure" of being a dentist get you down. General dentistry sucks and you shouldn't beat yourself up with stress trying to get there. Read "The Operator" by Robert O'Neill, and learn a new perspective on stress.
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Gary
10/17/2017 03:33:26 pm
can current dentist post how much they make after taxes and the state they are in? I am a prospective dental student.
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dmd
10/19/2017 08:21:55 am
started private practice in PA in July of 2016. I make $88,704 after tax ($134,400 before tax).. if fluctuates each quarter depending on production... but have over $300k of debt...
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gary
10/27/2017 03:53:38 pm
how many years ago did you graduate dental school? I meant to say when did you finish dental school and did you start as a associate? Did you buy your practice?
John
1/8/2018 09:23:56 am
I am a 3rd year dental student going into my spring semester. I hate it. I did well in class with a good gpa but once I got to clinic I dreaded seeing patients and hoped they would cancel. It's so stressful dealing with people and their ideals of what they expect from me. I thought I would like it but once I started dealing with people I realized I didn't enjoy it as I once thought I would. I feel like I'm also becoming slightly depressed too. I just don't care anymore. I am wondering if I should drop out now and find something else as I do not have any debt to pay or just continue with the career.
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Dr g
1/13/2018 05:45:39 am
John,
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Determined to get out of dentistry ASAP
2/5/2018 05:14:34 pm
John - I agree with Dr. G. You sound just like me when I was in dental school. Before clinic, I already didn't love dental school. Everyone told me it would get better once in clinic. When I was in clinic, my happiest days were when patients canceled or no-showed.
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RUN Forrest RUN
6/4/2018 02:15:11 pm
RUN from dentistry if you have the chance!!! Do anything but become a dentist. You will lose your mind within a decade. It is not worth it!!!! Please RUN.
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Yvonne
12/10/2018 10:53:48 am
Dear John,
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Teeth92
12/10/2018 11:45:53 am
Yvonne comments about her physical health are spot on. I know so many DDS with musculoskeletal problems and arthritis! Just the repetitive injuries that a DDS occurs from the nature of the job are very depressing. Yes one can strengthen core muscles and work out and improve ergonomics but the bottom line is that your shoulders,wrists and hands are injured through repetitive motions. And add on the stress of practice makes dentistry a very tough gig.
Dr W
7/22/2019 08:06:12 pm
Hi there-get out while you can if you hate it. Or at least think about alternative careers. I was the same as you. I ended up with severe untreated depression throughout dental school due to the stress ( and being a high functioning perfectionist with anxious tendencies made it the perfect storm). I hated it and the stress was unreal. I’ve been out over 20 years now and it hasn’t gotten much easier. The financial rewards happen when you work your own health into the ground, patients will continue to hate the dentist and I feel like I hurt people and piss them off all day despite doing my very best. I am very good at what I do but the emotional toll is huge. I have a lot of wonderful kind patients but that doesn’t offset the stress. Dentistry is technically challenging, and requires long periods of intense focus but you are constantly being yanked around the office and pushed to go as fast as possible, so the reward is minimal. To be well off there is a huge sacrifice- my mental health pays the price every day. Because it’s such a specialized profession I feel I have no way out. It’s so sad. I’m a working mom- bought in once but it was even more pressure so am just an associate now but I feel I can never make enough money for the business- and trust me, running the business is like having a second job on top of being a clinician. Staffing is a nightmare. Think twice.
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justahumanbeing
1/30/2018 05:08:43 am
Dear all,
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Dr F
6/21/2020 10:58:49 am
Unless you're a dentist, you have no right to make that statement. Fuck off.
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Matt
2/27/2018 06:40:36 pm
I graduated Dental school in 2014 and the last 4 years have been anything but enjoyable. I thrived in Dental school and loved the daily interaction with professors, classmates and most patients. It was a great atmosphere for learning and collaboration. I didn’t really enjoy treating patients but like others have written, I was told it would be better in “private practice”. Not true. Patients are more demanding, less appreciative and expect “high quality” dentistry when they have shity insurance benefits. I had a patient today tell me she would go to Mexico where she can get a crown for $50 after I spent 5 minutes professionally explaining my reason for the proposed treatment. Lol. What a joke. I practice in an area with a lot of completion. I often feel like I have to over-treat patients to make ends meet. I hate cutting down teeth for crowns when I think a large amalgam would serve the patient just as well but patients don’t want “Mercury fillings” and the pay structure in dentistry is ass backwards. It takes more time and skill to do a MOD than a crown and is often better treatment to preserve irreplaceable enamel but dentists are so crown happy now because it pays the bills. Dentistry is becoming a race to the bottom I feel so bad for patients who visit corporate dental practices and get sold a complete pile of shit. All because their private equity backed “investors” (owners) want to squeeze as much profit out of those offices as they can. There is nothing special about American dentistry. It’s filled with over treatment that hurts patients in the long run. A lot of patients would be better off not seeing a dentist than going to one that aggressively treats; not necessarily in the interest of profit but because the demands of business are so overwhelming he/she has to make payroll next week. I would not go to Dental school again. It’s physcially and mentally exhausting. I was diagnosed with a herniated disc at L5/S1 last year and after all conservative treatment failed had to get surgery to repair. I am a young healthy individual who exercises regularly; the only explanation is the constant strain and stress of dentistry on my body. And I’ve only been practicing for 4 years I can’t imagine doing this for much longer.
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Category iii
3/16/2018 10:56:31 am
Get out while you can but if you’re newly minted, chances are you owe a buttload . There’s no answer. Yes, in the US, dentistry sucks because like medicine , it is a business. While government oversight is anathema with capitalism, the flip side is that patients are over treated . The othe4 reason it’s insane to become a dentist in the US is the cost of an education. $500k to become a dentist? It’s a travesty of American higher education, the only Western country that saddles students with this kind of debt. And you know who pays other than students? The patients. As you mentioned, over treatment is the only way you can guarantee solvency in this profession but at great social and unethical cost . An average OB resin suddenly becomes a crown when faced with $2000 a month or more in student loans. I’m glad I live in Europe
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Graduated from dental school in 1996. I've been trying to get out of the profession for 21 years but there's no way out once you've invested all the time, money, and sacrifice into becoming a dentist. Initially I opened a new practice from scratch and literally made no money during the four years of ownership. Finally sold my practice and the IRS took the profits from the sale. I have been working Corporate Dentistry in Florida since 2001. The profession is controlled by insurance companies and corporate dentistry stockholders. I am doing crowns for $400....amazing, considering that in my private practice 20 years ago my fee for a crown was $650. The perfectionism "drilled" into you during dental school will haunt you with every procedure you do because it is literally impossible to accomplish. Patients are becoming more and more demanding, VERY rude, and sue happy. The consent forms that need to be signed prior to treatment seem to take longer than the procedure itself, but without them, would be costly. I can't tell you how many sleepless nights and migraine headaches this profession has caused me. I am ready to call it quits and find something that I actually enjoy during the last few years of my working career. I am just thankful that I graduated at a time when dental school was actually affordable. The profession is stressful enough without having the astronomical loans students are graduating with today.
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Category iii
3/25/2018 06:58:31 am
Every point in your post is spot on. This career is dead. It is financially impossible to practice especially for new students, insurances control everything, and patients are, for the most part, the worst. There are so many dentists that patients jump around whenever their impossible demands are not met. I also sold my practice after four years of zero profitability. I opened from scratch one year prior to the financial meltdown. I’m an associate but transitioning into a real estate career
Dr. PTL
11/7/2018 03:33:26 pm
Thank you for sharing!
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Pull it
2/9/2020 02:28:25 am
NAILED IT Matt. Worth repeating: RACE TO THE BOTTOM
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Linda Stratford
3/25/2018 09:00:49 am
Just for the record, not all pts are rude, etc. Some are very grateful and appreciative of the difficulty of dentistry. As for insurance, they do have their hands in the operatory. Did a filling on a man, 5 months later it abscessed, he wanted an extraction, insur denied because there was a "rule" (NOT in the manual, by the way) that said exts cannot be done within 6 months of a filling!! Guess the doctor should have consulted his crystal ball to know the future for that tooth! And on the subject of money, we are "old-fashioned" so don't have all the bells and whistles, but it seems practice websites boast about all their technology - which is just so darn expensive! A CBCT costs over $50K - too late in our career for those investments, yet pts expect all that, while insur does not pay. United Concordia has not raised their fees since 2011!! Really? Thanks for letting me vent.
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Pre-undecided
3/25/2018 09:38:54 am
This thread has been a wake-up call.
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Categoryiii
3/25/2018 09:45:58 am
If I were you, I would not even consider health care. Managed care has destroyed the industry. Definitely, don’t do dentistry. Of all the professions, it is the most expensive. $300k + debt is the norm. That is a huge burden when you start your life, interest rate, can’t discharge in a bankruptcy, etc. it’s financial suicide. If I could do it over, I would become an engineer or computer programmer or work or n the financial industry. You’ve been warned. Almost all dental treatment is elective. That means you have to sell it . It’s something I didn’t know when I was trying n school . I would’ve never done it . I also would not recommend anything in the field of medicine. With your chemistry and biology background you might want to consider chemical engineering as a route to take. You could pursue a career with a large pharmaceutical company and still play an active role in the field of medicine while making a decent income without all the headaches. I would check out the jobs openings at companies like 3M, Medtronic, Colgate-Palmolive, Johnson & Johnson, Novartis, Pfizer, etc. to get a feel whats out there. Hope this helps!
Dr. no $$$$
3/4/2019 01:59:38 pm
If I were you at 22, I would go back to college and take two years to get a business degree of some sort. You have many options with that degree. Biology degree wont do you much. Skip dentistry and maybe consider medicine and only radiology, not a lot of patient contact and you read xrays and make a good good living. Denistry only causes misery and body aches I agree with you that not all patients are rude or unappreciative and those are the patients that help me get through each and every day. However, those patients that do not fall into that category are becoming more prevalent and they put an additional burden of stress on a job that is already demanding both physically and mentally.
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.
3/25/2018 10:19:38 am
.
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Dr B
4/17/2018 01:46:20 pm
This is the most truthful and accurate depiction of general dentists daily headaches. I have been at it for 21 yrs and will begin a residency in endo this summer. 15 years of back pain pushed me out of GP. Hopefully extending career by using a microscope. My kids will never be dentists for all the reasons mentioned.
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Dr G
4/29/2018 09:39:56 am
Good decision. Its going to be interesting for you to be "trained" by endodontists who probably haven't ever seen more than 10 patients in a day. If you did endo in the office your going to sail through residency.
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Me
5/29/2018 04:53:03 pm
Example of daily headaches: patient comes in and won’t let me seat her back for treatment so have to bend my back over to peer into her mouth. Past note in her chart indicates she wants lots of topical- used lots of topical. “That’s too much topical I need my mouth rinsed out now”. Give her freezing “you used too much freezing”. Compared to other dentist “the other dentist did it better and you have lots to live up to”. Proceed to complete entire filling trying to peer into her mouth all hunched over since I can’t sit her back. Sighhhhh daily struggles. Only thing keeping me in the profession is the good pay and my student debts. Would love out but feeling trapped. You really have to love people to do this career. Bewarned.
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Dr. D
4/2/2019 09:23:52 pm
Hey Dr B, how are you enjoying endo? I’m 5 years in practice and thinking of doing the exact same thing, but I’m worried about endo because of the growth of implants and the increasing competitiveness of dentistry, which will make more GPs want to stay busy with endo
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Don'tbeadentist
5/3/2018 12:16:41 pm
I am so happy I found this. I am so miserable being a dentist. I will have been practing for 10 years this month. I've worked for corporate, community health centers (with the national health service corps for school loan repayment; which was a life saver) and now in my 6th year of private practice. I try to the best dentist I can possibly be, but it's so frustrating when restorations fail or a patient isn't compliant. It's just such a vicious cycle. I can't sleep and have chest pains from anxiety. But honestly, how can you get out? I feel like a trapped animal. I am just now able to pay myself a decent salary. The only light I can see at the end of the tunnel is if I funnel any extra savings to retirement. But what kind of life is that? I swear the ONLY positive about being a dentist is that I'm off on Fridays.
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Linda Stratford
5/3/2018 12:53:00 pm
I am the office manager for my husband (a dentist for 33 yrs). I understand everything you are saying, and he too has been searching for a "way out" for many years. He tried the military, but was really too old...that or prison dentistry may be an option for you...or maybe trying to be a dental consultant? There are people out there who love what they do despite the drawbacks...guess it depends on your personality. My advice is if you want to bail out, do it while you are young so you have time to recreate yourself and not too many people are dependent upon you. I know it's scary, esp when you have loans to pay.
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Dr g
5/3/2018 03:18:37 pm
Seriously look at State and Federal Prison system. Web search Smallwood prison systems. Very fair organization and a very straight up and fair owner. Ask them if there’s an opening in one of his facilities.
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Linda
5/4/2018 04:46:25 am
Is this company just for VA, or any state? I've found similar companies like this one,but they are state-specific.
Category iii
5/3/2018 03:29:45 pm
If you position yourself well, meaning, work extra hard to pay off your student loans and minimize your lifestyle, you should be able to get out. Although there aren’t many dental career options outside of clinical and teaching, if you’re young enough, you can do it. Many dentists feel trapped after they’ve bought big homes and expensive cars, etc. I made a decision to get out, sold all my materialistic shit that no one cares about anyway, and am now doing real estate. Do I make as much? No. But I’m just starting and have my sanity and health back and no amount of money is worth losing that. I have more time to spend with family (it saved my marriage) and have no problem driving a Honda Accord.
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Dean Bill
6/4/2018 08:59:01 am
Dentistry is the most miserable profession in the world. I lost 2 houses, my marriage, my dignity, I now suffer from type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and finally I'm about to file bankruptcy and get the H3ll out of this horrific career. For god's sake never let anyone you love go to dental school.
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ls
6/5/2018 09:01:29 am
Hello - I realized my full name showed up on several replies I made. Is there any way to delete those? I don't want my name showing. Thanks
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ETG
6/18/2018 06:59:46 am
Always feel anxious on my way to the office. Never feel satisfied on my way home. Don’t sleep well bc I can’t stop thinking of all that will go wrong tomorrow. My back hurts. My neck hurts and my right leg goes numb when I sit or stand for too long. I just find that dentistry is a continual source of stress, depression and anxiety.
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Giving Up
6/18/2018 07:39:13 pm
I totally understand how you feel. I'm essentially having a nervous breakdown from being a dentist. I too feel anxious and nervous just walking in the office. Today was a day from Hell as I tried to please a patient with a denture. That is an impossibility!!!! I can't say it enough how much I hate being a dentist and I've never seen another career as stressful as dentistry. I keep thinking that it will make a turn-around but it never does. The problems just keep compounding. All of my friends and family seem so at ease at events and parties but all I can do is fake I'm happy as I constantly worry that a patient is upset , possibly going to sue me, an employee won't show up Monday morning, a computer will crash first thing in the morning affecting all of the other equipment, a crown and bridge case might not fit for no apparent reason, someone filed insurance incorrectly delaying an already delayed payment, stack of bills that I'm having to jockey around with to keep from being late, children needing attention, wife needing attention, .....it just burns you out after 10 years. The sad thing is that we have no one to talk to. Nobody would relate or fully understand. I sometimes feel the only purpose of my life was to keep my children out of dentistry, and I certainly did that. They are very happy in their professions and they didn't have to spend a decade wasting their time in academics and a million dollars to begin their first day of work. Stay out of dentistry!!!
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x
6/19/2018 04:57:51 am
Add to your list of litanies insurance rules we broke that we didn't even know existed, osha, hipaa, no retirement plan, self-insured, no paid days off.........I totally understand how you feel. Would have been better off doing hvac.
ETG
6/19/2018 05:10:32 am
Giving Up- you are not alone. There are plenty of us out there. I’ve been in this profession for 28 years and it feels like a jail sentence. I feel like I haven’t been able to take a deep breath and relax in 20 years. Constantly worrying how much I have to collect every day/week/month just to be able to pay everybody else. And guess who gets paid last?? US!!! I’ve experienced everything you’ve mentioned and more. Making dentures is very difficult because who wants a mouth full of acrylic? If a pt requests dentures I tell them from the first impression that they will not replace natural teeth and they may be very difficult to eat with and make speaking difficult. I basically set the expectations as low as possible so they know what to expect from day one. If they work out better than expected then you’re a bit of a hero. But there always is a choice...I sold my practice and moved out of state. I joined a group practice and became an associate. Trust me...it wasn’t easy. But it can be done. Maybe hire a DSO to run your practice. You just show up, work, collect a salary and go home. Hang in there...nothing is forever and there always is a choice
dr x
6/29/2019 06:24:49 pm
i sooo relate to EVERYTHING you say. i have been doing it for 10 yrs and feel like i have lost my mind somewhere along the way. I am constantly anxious & worried, have come to hate people, and the constant fear of litigation makes it almost impossible to enjoy any aspect of my life.
Robert Devoe
6/20/2018 09:08:13 am
It is so wonderful to have found this site where people are telling the reality of the daily/hourly horrors of being a dentist. The counselors and advisors in colleges are doing the young , unaware students a severe and cruel disjustice by not FORCING them to fully be aware of the mental battles and lifetime financial constraints that they will be walking into. They need to be told just how much they will be eventually hated for walking into a room. If students were adequately screened, the schools would be half the class size they are today. I would rather wear a gas soaked sweater in Hell than be a dentist. I've NEVER been happy with it even after going to seminars for encouragement. I feel so sorry for my colleagues as we all suffer anguish daily for trying to make people happy in this forsaken career.
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Teeth92
7/1/2018 03:47:43 pm
Sold after 24 years. I am free. However , I can’t get back all those years of neck, back and shoulder pain. I feel bad for any young person stuck in dentistry. Try to be frugal so you can leave when you want. I would never recommend this gig for any young person. When is the dental school bubble going to burst ?
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DJ
7/1/2018 06:31:50 pm
Feel exactly the same way. I sold after 24 years in 2016 and absolutely love it. I struggled a little bit at first with people wondering why the hell I sold but I do not care now . Congratulations and enjoy!
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Teeth92
7/1/2018 06:47:04 pm
Congrats DJ! Yep I struggled a little bit at first because of the “extra money” , I could have made. But I read Your Money or Your Life and I finally realized that my time and health were so much more valuable.Glad u were able to sell too.
l
7/2/2018 04:56:26 am
DJ/Teeth92 - may I ask.... what are you doing now?
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DJ
7/2/2018 07:10:41 am
I am fully retired from dentistry. I own equity in the dental building which houses other dental practices that rent ,so that keeps me somewhat involved. I love going to the office now since there are no toothaches waiting for me. Avoiding lifestyle creep and investing a high percentage of income each and every year does work. If you save and invest 1/3 of your income every year, you will maintain your lifestyle. I exercise every day and enjoy my family. I am very blessed
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Teeth92
7/2/2018 05:04:13 am
I work 2 days a week in a public health center
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A Dentist
8/1/2018 10:07:22 pm
That’s the dream!!!!
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??
12/9/2018 12:10:56 pm
Is there any way to private message through this forum? It would be great if my spouse could talk to you, Teeth92 - you seem to have much in common and they could use your advice.
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Teeth92
12/9/2018 01:23:03 pm
Hi ??
??
12/11/2018 03:54:46 pm
I don't see anywhere to contact an administrator, or any one else.
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Giving Up
7/2/2018 09:48:42 am
It's so good to hear that some of you have been able to escape the battle of dentistry. I wish I were fortunate enough to be able to escape the madness and stress. Without a doubt, dentistry is the most stressful and emotionally destructive profession in the world.
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Cosmo
7/12/2018 12:03:06 am
While I sympathize with dentists, we all have issues at work, including physical health problems, dealing with rude customers, getting paid, not getting sued, etc. The only thing that might differ is the high debt, but dentists typically have a better salary than most so that should compensate.
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Insanity
7/12/2018 10:09:09 am
"Crowns, crowns, crowns. Easy, very profitable crowns". LOL. Please enlighten us as to how to restore properly multiple teeth without doing crowns. How would you like it if all we said was "extraction, extraction, extraction "?
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Cosmo
7/13/2018 04:29:16 pm
I didn't say teeth should be restored without using crowns. But crowns are sold when less damaging restorations are available in so many cases because they are easy and profitable. That was the point I was making. Onlays or inlays are more difficult and time consuming so many dentist just default to a crown no matter what. Sometimes that's wise other times its not. From my experience, oftentimes a patient's treatment plan has less to do with what's best for the patient and more to do with what's good for the practice. The dozens of posts here by dentists who bemoan not making enough money, having to pay back student loans, dealing with patients and hating the profession explains why that likely is. Where I live there are twice the number of dentists per capita nationally, so there is a ton of overtreatment going on, as many here have noted. 7/24/2018 09:27:53 am
I feel for all the dentists who have a job that they truly hate. I've had jobs that I've hated, but I've never about all the stuff that dentists have to put up with.
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ETG
7/25/2018 09:04:12 am
Jim...the dentists who post here and express their feelings about their profession are not seeking ways to get more "high quality" and more "profitable" patients. I'm sure we've all been promised this before. I know I have. And by the way, what constitutes a "high quality" patient. How does someone like yourself distinguish between a high quality patient and a profitable patient? Whats your criteria? I've been in this profession long enough and have heard advertisers/consultants like yourself promising these types of patients. Never happens. You're going to put someones website higher on the google search engine costing dentists enormous monthly fees. Doesn't work. The best referrals will come from internal marketing and asking satisfied patients for referrals. Labeling humans as profitable is sleezy in my opinion. We all seek that patient who will agree with your treatment plan, comply with financial arrangements and refer friends and family. But in today's dental market place those patients are few and far between.
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Teeth92
7/25/2018 10:22:47 am
ETC, exactly. I completely agree.
Giving Up
7/25/2018 12:37:50 pm
ETG, I agree with your comment. Thanks for posting that.
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Dr g
7/25/2018 03:30:52 pm
Dental practice consultants are selling snake oil. I’ll save everyone $5000. 1.) Establish a stong social media presence. 2.) Hire an office manager who privately speak to a patient, look her in the eye and close the deal. 3.) Get the frontdesk/admin area computerized. 4.) Don’t look desperate and tell the patient there are only 3 things we need in the office they are #1-Pt does what Dr advises, # 2-Pt is pleasant to staff, #3- Pt pays bill on time.
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ETG
7/26/2018 12:30:57 pm
Very well put Dr. G. Like we take courses in treatment planning and case acceptance don't you think that these consultants get training in how to close a dentist on a consulting contract? Of course they do. Its funny because I've heard the same line...I have clients in a less affluent area than you and they produce $100,000 a month working 4 days a week. Don't you want that? You can smell the BS as soon as they open their mouths
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AussieDentist
7/27/2018 01:54:45 am
Thank you all for helping me not feel so alone anymore. In my opinion, this is a sick industry. No one told me that teeth were the least of my worries compared to the psychological torture I would have to both witness and undergo. It is absolute murder for the heart to constantly see patients look at you like you're a monster and children scream in fear at you whilst having to swallow this and smile. I am well loved and gentle and caring but there's only so long one can give of themselves and face such cruel rejection. You really get to see the worst in humanity in this twisted industry. Thank you all again and I wish you all the best. Life is too precious and I hope to feel safe enough one day to let the joy back into my heart.
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Teeth92
7/27/2018 03:38:02 am
AussieDentist, you are not alone. Dentistry is a tough gig, especially if you view it as a healthcare profession. My friends that do well in dentistry are not empathetic ( they have thick skin) and see themselves as primarily businessmen. I would try to have a strong life outside of dentistry full of hobbies and family and friends. What helped me was planning an exit strategy. I owned a practice for 24 years but after around 15 years I planned my exit so I had something to look forward to. Life after dentistry is great !
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Rano
2/21/2019 04:28:14 pm
Could you please give us tips on how you planned ypur exit after 15 years and what is the best route to sell the practice?
Teeth92
4/30/2019 03:11:15 pm
Hi Rano, I just saw your post. So the first thing I did was to get a practice valuation so I knew how much equity I had. That gave me a mental boost when I saw how much the practice was worth. I was privileged to be FFS my entire career. Then I attacked all my debt by following guys like Dave Ramsey. My production went up because I could see the light out the end of the tunnel. I was 51 when I sold . I am very lucky to be married for a long time and my husband has great health insurance through his job. He is an engineering manager with a very large company. I am 54 now and work 2 days a week in a public health clinic. My husband loves his career but plans to exit in a couple years around 58. We are blessed to have retiree insurance until 65 through his employer. Dentists have it rough because basically we are self employed and trying to fund retirement and healthcare is so stressful on top of an already stressful profession. I recommend engineering IT or biotech for young people esp within a very large company that can provide great benefits.
Dentist 21
7/27/2018 09:44:24 am
Aussie Dentist--Life is indeed to precious and we all deserve to have joy in our hearts. Its just a shame that this profession sucks the joy out of our soul. Do more of whatever brings you joy and puts a smile on your face. Nothing is forever
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Giving Up
7/27/2018 09:50:39 am
If you are in dental school, you are still in a position to save your life. Even if you are in your senior year, LEAVE DENTISTRY NOW! I wish I had never signed up for this. The problem is that no matter how good of a dentist you are, your work will almost never be appreciated. You will be told you're hated all the time, you'll have to fight economics a constantly, fight with patients as they always think they know more than you do, good ol' buddies will keep wanting free dentistry from you, etc. Job satisfaction is very low. RUN! while you can!
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Marta
8/1/2018 02:17:35 am
I moved to Sweden 4 years ago with hopes of working in the public health field. Note,I had a degree in dentistry and another in epidemiology. Efforts to get out of dentistry have been futile,as my degree in epidemiology is undervalued.
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Teeth92
8/1/2018 07:37:50 am
In America , public health takes primarily Medicaid. From what I know you will work a faster pace than private practice ,but you will have none of the ownership issues . In public clinics , you basically clock in and clock out like shift work.
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A dentist
8/1/2018 10:16:07 pm
Yup I would not pick this career again, but I feel relatively happy.
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A dentist
8/1/2018 10:28:49 pm
I should add I used to always be ashamed to tell my peers I worked in public health, because they all owned their own practices but after reading everyone’s comments I clearly am NOT missing out. I guess I’ll go into my upcoming reunion feeling a bit more confident 😂
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Tony Tillman
8/10/2018 01:24:07 pm
In dental school the instructors always said make sure you know a great accountant and lawyer. Let me add psychiatrist to that list and a doctor that understands the need for antidepressants.
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Teeth92
8/10/2018 02:52:36 pm
Yes! And a shrink that has a lot of experience with marriage therapy.
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Tony Tillman
8/10/2018 05:22:06 pm
Yes! That too! I lost my wife due to the stress , strain, and disconnect caused by dentistry. Dentistry destroys all kinds of relationships given enough time. I wish I had chosen a different direction in a career. I thought dentistry was going to be a great career but after just 8 years, it has made me miserable. There are occasionally good days but overall you can never sleep solid at night with a positive attitude. It will wear down the most positive people you know. No one escapes the mental destruction. I'm sorry , but it's true.
Teeth92
8/10/2018 05:39:32 pm
Yes Tony I agree. Dentistry changes ones’ personality. The constant debt of student loans and practice loans and the fact that patients don’t want to be there. The constant call and even when one does a procedure perfectly, it fails either immediately or later . And when your spouse is not a DDS , they can’t understand the constant stress.
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Burnt to a Crisp
8/15/2018 11:29:33 am
Boy, and I thought I was bad off in Dentistry! Some of these tales are heartbreaking, considering the unhappy lives wasted in the dental meat grinder. I graduated in '78, went into the military during the 20 percent interest days if Jimmy Carter. Having the extra experience of a 1yr.GP residency, followed by 3 years of experience helped me launch into private practice with a minimum of debt. Fast forward some 35 years... I'm 65 and just worn out. I've saved an enormous amount compared to some of the folks who have written in, and am closing the doors first of next year. There is no one interested in coming to a rural PA town these days, so my practice is of no value. If there was a secret to my 'success', it lied in having a home-office, which REALLY paid off in tax savings! Also, we ran lean and mean. One chairside, one office manager, one full time hygienist. We gross about 600k, work 4 days a week, and net about 250k. So guys, some measure of material success can be had, but you need to guard your $ wisely, and live below your means! That being said, I never laid awake at night with financial worries, but the stress of carrying every phobic patient's baloney has just worn me out. I'm still in good health, but am about to throw the towel in. This profession will eat up even the strongest individual, and I steered my kids clear of dentistry. Stay away.
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Teeth92
8/15/2018 12:15:37 pm
Burnt to a Crisp. First of all congratulations and much admiration for being able to own all those years. I owned for 24 and sold. Great advice on staying lean. If I could go back in time , I would have had fewer staff too. The overhead and drama with staff is a huge amount of stress ! I too steered my child away from dentistry.
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dental misery
8/20/2018 02:43:56 am
Finally people who understand my pain. I am a 3rd year dental student and I absolutely hate it. I went to dental school after being a nurse for 5 years at a place where my job made me genuinely happy. I thought going to dental school would give me a better work life balance and I could enjoy being a mom and having kids, but that is a load of shit. I have been working during school and it is the only thing that keeps me sane. I have been on 6 combos of antidepressants because I hate dentistry so much that I don't want to get out of bed most days and none of them have worked they have just made me gain 20 lbs. I have tried to leave school several times, but my parents tell me they will never forgive me and neither will anyone else in my family. I am in 210k of debt and I am so painfully miserable with my mother forcing me to finish because she tells me I am not a quitter. I am coming out of dental school with 380k of debt possibly more and I am studying for my GRE to just go back to NP school once I finish this shit because if I do general dentistry I am fairly certain I will be miserable for the rest of my life. I wish my family could accept how miserable I am and forgive me for making the biggest mistake in my life. My parents view nurses as pions, but gosh I would take being a pion over dealing with my one patient who spit in my face after I double booked him and another patient which occurred thanks to my school making us be our own secretaries on top of all the other bullshit.
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Giving Up
8/20/2018 04:58:17 am
hi,dental misery. It's your life. Don't let others keep you going towards a horrible profession. We all know what we are talking about. Dentistry sucks and the title of this blog is called that because it is true. The debt will worsen, your depression will become chronic, your friendships WILL deteriorate, your children will suffer, and you will hate being a dentist. You won't be rich, you will struggle with lawsuit threats, you will face divorce. Dentistry is the most stressful and dissatisfying career in the workforce. I just wish you would cut your losses and do what makes YOU happy. I would love to be in your position so that I could go in another direction, even with your debt.
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Dr g
8/20/2018 04:38:29 pm
Dental Misery... The following is my opinion, that’s all just an opinion.
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Drill Fill and Bill
8/20/2018 12:02:37 pm
If you have been in this profession at least 20 years...look back on some photos and/or videos of yourself. Yeah we've all put on a few pounds or developed a middle aged pot belly...but take a closer look at your self. Not just on the outside. It seems I was so much happier back then. Wanted to be around others. Now it seems like I just want the day to end so I can go home and get into bed and be alone. This profession and sucked the life out of me. Causing irreversible damage to my body at the same time. Depression. Anxiety. Stress. Irritability. When I look at myself in the mirror, I don't see the person I want to be or the person I thought I would be.
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Giving Up
8/20/2018 12:14:04 pm
I agree. I am a completely different soul inside and out since being a dentist. Soldiers that come back from war are highly regarded and recognized for the physical and mental trauma they went through in battle. It's called post traumatic distress syndrome (ptds). We as dentists probably suffer the exact same thing but for decades, not just for 5 or 6 years.
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Teeth92
8/26/2018 06:54:45 am
The good news is you will return to a much healthier and happier self when you can either cut back , retire , or start a different career. It gets a lot better.
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Teeth92
8/21/2018 08:39:54 am
Dental Misery. If your heart is telling you to quit , please do. You will hate fixing teeth for the next 30 years. Become a nurse practitioner or physician assistant. The loans are manageable now. But if you graduate dental school you will be fixing teeth for 30 years. And you will be very bored ! I liked dental school but I sold my practice after 24 years due to shear exhaustion. Dentistry is a dirty and physically challenging job. And pts don’t appreciate you.
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Giving Up
8/25/2018 10:18:33 am
Eventually making good money loses its appeal after you've been beaten down hard with the "I hate dentist" comments almost daily, fighting the losing battle of trying to please your patients time and time again, fighting getting paid by the patient and insurance companies, arguing about treatment plans. Constantly worrying about taxes, employees showing up or not, labs doing their job correctly and delivering on time. Then we have the internet trolls that can anonymously bash your practice and your intricate restorations with no consequences at all to the troll but all the consequences to you (the dentist), keeping you on your toes worrying sick if this is going to keep patients from coming to your practice. Add to that just the mere difficulty and stress of the daily routine. If you are just now beginning your career in this awful profession, STOP what you're doing and get out right now OR stop spending any money and save up as much as you can to live on after you're 45 or 50 because after 50, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH IT ANYMORE. Be prepared to exit this mess and have a new career plan after 50 because you will be miserable beyond 50 for sure. Heck , you will be miserable at 35 but you pretty much are stuck at that point due to debt and family life obligations.
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Teeth92
8/25/2018 11:48:08 am
Giving up summed the career up perfectly. I loved the money that’s the only thing that kept me going but once I got into my 50s I just could not go into my practice anymore. The staff , the pts and the fake drama just was too much. Even the money did not motivate me. So I sold my practice after 24 years and I am very happy. Funny thing is now I work 1-2 days a week in public health and there is no arguing about tx plans coz it’s free. Private pts don’t want to pat for dental tx !
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Teeth92
8/25/2018 11:56:28 am
And let me add that there are so many DDS now that it is a race to the bottom for fees. And pts will leave your office and your competition (not colleague) next door will tell the pt how bad your dental “ work”is and that it all needs to be redone. And the pt will write a bad review and threaten to call the board unless you refund all their money that they ever spent in your practice.
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Giving Up
8/25/2018 05:20:49 pm
Teeth92 is exactly right. Couldn't have said it better. It's a dental patient's world nowadays.
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Drill and fill and bill
9/1/2018 07:57:03 am
My crown feels rough.My filling feel rough. I get food caught between my teeth. My teeth are sensitive after you filled them. They weren't sensitive before. Don't lean me all the way back. My dentures are loose. I get food stuck under my dentures. My partials don't fit right. My insurance covers everything right? I don't want a crown. Just do a filling. I don't want x-rays. Nobody ever told me I had gum disease before. My bite has been off ever since you put in the bridge. Why am I in so much pain after you took out my tooth. Is this going to hurt? When can I eat? Don't get me too numb. How long is this going to take? I went home and looked at my veneers and I don't like them. Why does the crown cost so much? I hate going to the dentist. Nothing personal though. You get the idea...Did I miss anything?
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Teeth92
9/1/2018 08:23:10 am
DFB, I am dying laughing. Spot-on. I heard this everyday for 24 years.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/1/2018 08:38:47 am
I left out open. Open please. Don't close. Open. Can you open any wider? Stay open please? Almost done. Open. Open please. Please say open.
xx
9/1/2018 09:58:44 am
ooh,ooh, I got one....will the color of this filling/crown match my other teeth? Why, no ma'am, we're going to make it a different color just for kicks.
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Teeth92
9/1/2018 11:39:32 am
Says the filling/crown patient who is 100 lbs overweight wearing clothes that don’t even match! Which reminds me of the pt who wanted all of her “mercury fillings” removed because they were causing her health problems including fatigue. This pt was at least 150 lbs overweight. She ended up seeing a “holistic dentist” who removed them.
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xx
9/1/2018 12:08:23 pm
I can't stop! I've got one more - patient called saying the suction tip left irritation marks on her tissue and now she's afraid she'll get cancer!
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Teeth92
9/1/2018 01:27:19 pm
Lol........and she wants a full refund or she will leave a scathing review on Healthgrades.
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Drill fill and bill
9/1/2018 01:49:23 pm
“Yes Dr. I would like to know if I can get my teeth whitened.” Says the patient with bombed out molars. Full blown Perio. Root tips and poorly fitting partials.
Giving Up
9/1/2018 02:15:34 pm
It's funny how they get mad when we say they have 7 cavities . Heck , you started out with 32 teeth, those are pretty good odds and do you think decay picks and chooses which teeth it's going to pick on???? I would love dentistry if weren't for the people.
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Teeth92
9/1/2018 02:28:57 pm
Agree!
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Giving Up
9/1/2018 05:00:33 pm
It's complimentary that they think that our dental work will outlast what God gave them to start with. They think because they paid a few inconvenient dollars to us that somehow that warrants eternal perfection. It's funny how they go back to the tire shop with worn out tires and don't demand free new tires, or don't demand free haircuts because their hair is long again. Unbelievable!
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Teeth92
9/2/2018 08:19:11 am
I have never thought of that. But I replace things regularly that costs more than crowns and usually in less than 10 years.
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Drill fill and bill
9/2/2018 08:38:16 am
Where is the rationality? People expect something man made to last longer than what they were born with? I understand that people with certain medical conditions or people who have had trauma require dental work to repair teeth. But for the most part people require dental work out of neglect and complete disregard for their Dental health. Drugs. Energy Drinks. Soda. Candy. Cigarettes. If people can’t take care of their teeth...why would they think a crown will last forever? It baffles me
Sigmund
9/3/2018 08:00:29 pm
"People expect something man made to last longer than what they were born with?"
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Giving Up
9/3/2018 11:15:17 pm
Hi Sigmund. I get the feeling that you would be the type that would sue a dentist that undertreatment planned your mouth, neglecting to tell you of problems that you needed to get taken care. You're the typical patient we hate seeing getting out of your Lexus and walking towards the front door of the office. Did your 5th letter from the collection agency prompt you to post here?
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Robert Gibbs
9/4/2018 08:37:05 am
Physicians wouldn't survive one day of being a dentist. It requires the touch of real surgeons to be a dentist. Physicians have it made as they work on patients that are asleep, the techs do all the needle sticking, and if anything happens to not go as planned the patients just say you did your best doc and they just go their way. Dentists do the most stressful surgeries of the body in the most sensitive and personally invasive areas and it's as if the patients go looking for something to gripe about. Dentistry is indeed the most stressful career in the world. Stay away!
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/12/2018 05:05:32 am
It’s 8am and I just got into the office. I’d rather stick needles under my finger nails than be here right now. Life sucks and I’m miserable
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Teeth92
9/13/2018 09:10:43 am
Drill Fill and Bill ,
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9/17/2018 06:06:53 pm
Please contact me if you are in need of support.
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AMB
10/27/2018 09:37:05 pm
Not a dentist, but a hygienist for 7 years and GETTING OUT of this profession. I actually understand and feel for every dentist I've ever worked for. The work itself is very physically demanding and not that fulfilling. I thought I might want to be a dentist when I was in hygiene school but changed my mind quickly when I would assist. I think there's a lot of misery in dentistry because you go home and your entire body hurts. I'm sick of busting out my back for your teeth, when we both know you don't floss and you don't plan to. Then, on your worst day, you get the patient who complains about the cost, won't lay back in the chair, talks too much to get anything done, and of course says for the millionth time "I hate the dentist." The dental schools are the biggest liars if you ask me.
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AMB
10/27/2018 09:47:33 pm
Also, if patients could spend a day in our shoes and feel the soul-sucking energy that goes into just getting them in the chair and to open their mouth, they would think we're celestial beings from another world. I've been in prison too long. Time to escape, I've paid my dues....
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Giving Up
10/27/2018 10:03:32 pm
AMB, you are dead-on correct about the situation. I almost believe I'm having a nervous breakdown from the stress of dentistry. I'm at a point that I may have to seek medical attention to manage the overwhelming feelings of duress and anxiety dentistry causes me. Having to stick people in the mouth with needles dozens of times a DAY, trying to get cooperation from the patient, trying to get perfect results with restorations really makes you break down during the day, then eventually your personal friendships fall apart because you eventually carry this horrid profession home with you. It gets so old hearing how much I'm hated from the time they first see me , while in the treatment room, and then until they bellyache their way out of the front desk area about how much they think they shouldn't have to pay us for our expertise and time. I hate my career and I'll never enjoy it for the rest of my wasted life. Dentistry won't allow happiness.
Misanthropist
11/9/2018 08:07:46 am
Dentistry has changed my view of humanity. Before dentistry, I was taught "man for others". Now my view is "man f#ck others".
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??
11/9/2018 10:30:08 am
Dentistry can certainly change one's view of humanity, but it seems you have let it take away your humanity - yes, many pts are jerks and ungrateful, but there are many who are kind and very appreciative of what we do. Has no one ever thanked you with tears in their eyes because you relieved their pain or restored their dignity? It does happen. And insurance is so complicated, it is hard enough for the dental professionals to understand, let alone patients. Get your staff up to speed with insurance, stop doing preauths, get signed tx plans and collect up front. You will have very few collection problems. And to walk away from an emergency because a jerk screwed you? I could not feel good about that.
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Grieving
11/24/2018 06:16:00 am
My brother worked for over 3.5 decades for what seems to be (by reading reviews of that company by employees, patients, some specific to the branch he worked for) one of those production-oriented, no-control-over-your-work-circumstances, penalize, suspend and humiliate the dentist - corporatized dental firms in the rural Midwest. I had always thought the area to be bucolic and sleepy, that corporatized dentistry would not have reached the depths of WI ruraldom. I was wrong.
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Misanthropist
11/26/2018 07:14:52 am
Dear Grieving,
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Teeth92
11/27/2018 07:07:39 pm
Dear Grieving,
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Grieving
12/1/2018 01:15:25 am
Thank you, Teeth 92 for your kind words. Yes, the victim was in his early 60s, so those of us who don't know why he was fired, think perhaps they were forcing - early retirement / or get fired - for innocuous "errors" / "violations" that they never cared about before, but list up now as "evidence" for the "need" to fire the employee. I mean, after 36 years being the only dentist at the branch, why would they fire him now? I sense bullying, due to some stories I had heard over the years. However, I hadn't realized to what extent. Bullying seems to be part and parcel of the dental industry. I was reading about bullying by professors in dental schools. 11/25/2018 12:18:17 am
If you want to pour your heart out about the down side of being a dentist, please contact me. I would like to gather a blog post about your experiences. Answer these questions:
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Grieving
11/27/2018 03:36:37 am
Dear Misanthropist, thank you for your kind condolence. I appreciate it. Suicide is awful because of the utter silence around it. Shame. Guilt. Difficult to grieve when no one will talk. It's good that you have found solace regarding your loss.
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Teeth92
12/1/2018 02:39:20 am
Dear Grieving,
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??
12/1/2018 05:32:05 am
Dear Grieving, I am so sorry for your loss. I'm sure your brother's situation hits home for many dentists - whether corporate or private practice. Private has it's own set of issues - no retirement, no health insurance, expense increases while insurance reimbursement decreases, the older one gets the less one wants to invest in the latest/greatest/expensive technology....making the practice seem out-of-date. I wish I knew what the answer is.............
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Teeth92
12/1/2018 06:54:00 am
Agree with ?? Many of us struggle with suicidal thoughts. And I am so glad ?? brought up the issues of private practice as most of us practiced that way. Buying health insurance for a family is terribly expensive and having no benefits is very stressful. If we don’t work we don’t get paid but our overhead is always there and it is high in solo practice. Lots of stressors for DDS. Did not recommend it to my children. And they want nothing to do with dentistry either.
Giving Up
12/2/2018 07:05:09 am
It's always sad to hear when another has lost their battle with dentistry.
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Misanthropist
12/9/2018 12:24:44 pm
I agreed.
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Giving Up
12/12/2018 02:02:38 pm
I can't express enough how much I hate being a dentist. No matter how good you are at doing the finest dentistry on the planet, 80% of the patients will look and find the most insignificant thing to nag about. When you look to find the problem, there's nothing wrong!!! It's all in their mind that something is not right, and as long as they think that way, you as the dentist is a failure and should be blamed for the non-existent problem and they demand perfection or their money refunded. Denture patients are the worst! Please! If you are considering being a dentist, please run the other way. Being a dentist is a living hell.
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Drill fill and bill
12/15/2018 08:42:00 am
Giving up...I hate being a dentist. You are not alone. Dentistry is a profession that thrives on negativity. Out of 100 things that you do as a dentist the one thing that does go wrong is put under a microscope. It makes all the positive things not worth anything at all. Dentistry has destroyed my body and is slowly sucking the life out of my soul. Not to mention the fact that I have become more of an introvert with each day that passes. The things that I used to find joy in I no longer have interest in. I have lost my battle with this profession and I feel like I have no where to turn
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broken file
1/16/2019 07:28:53 pm
Found this site by searching things like "how to get out of dentistry" "I hate being a dentist"....well why did I want to become a dentist??
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Giving Up
1/17/2019 05:24:43 am
Thanks for verifying with us that Dentistry Sucks. It truly does. What we are experiencing is the inherent agony of being dentists at the same time experiencing a dental "bubble". Way too many dentists across the landscape, too many dental schools, attacks from Corp dental, insurance pirates, etc. Just like a housing bubble, tech bubble, trade bubble, stock bubble, the dental bubble is popping. I wish I had NEVER stepped into the dental school because I have never seen good days, just ungrateful patients and enormous debt. I'm saying it again, RUN FROM DENTISTRY!!!
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Teeth92
1/17/2019 06:09:33 am
Giving up is absolutely correct. I consider myself lucky because I graduated in 92 and I sold my practice after 20 years and now I work just 2 days a week in a health center with no stress. What has changed dramatically in dentistry are the pts. They do not want to pay you no matter what you charge and they will leave you to see another DDS who doesn’t collect their copays . If you are considering going into dentistry please do your research and do not believe the US News and World Reports that consistently rank dentistry as a great job. The debt is unbearable and I meet very few dentists that like their jobs.
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Giving Up
2/8/2019 02:51:30 pm
I hate being a dentist and I've exhausted every attempt to live with it and enjoy it. There is NO solution. If you are not a dentist, RUN! PLEASE! It is a hellish life
DrJaneDoe
1/17/2019 01:43:55 pm
Hi all,
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Dr g
1/17/2019 02:25:46 pm
State prison system. Do it, you’ll have few regrets.
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TooOld
1/17/2019 01:45:38 pm
I’m 34 and my shoulder hurts. Could have picked a better profession with less wear and tear.
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Viv
1/18/2019 06:15:50 pm
I’m a pediatric dentist and practising since 5 years now and 2 years into private practice. I completely agree with most of the points shared here. Since I’m really just 2 years into private practice everyone around me (parents included) keeps persuading me to carry on and things will get better. In the current situation it has been hand to mouth and I start wondering when will I earn that extra money to have a trip to Europe etc. Moreover, as I’m in India, most of you must be aware that it dentistry is the cheapest here.
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AD
1/28/2019 08:04:43 am
I just put in my resignation.
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Gary June
2/11/2019 06:00:29 pm
I hated dentistry
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GottaGetOut
2/12/2019 12:45:27 am
Thank you all for taking the time to write and articulate so many of the same sentiments I feel daily. I have been a dentist for 10 years and have done about every kind of associateship out there. I am so burned out. Hating dentistry is something that pops into my head every few minutes. I have worked for 3 different DSOs over the years, locum tenens work, health centers, private offices, and most recently mobile dentistry in the back of horse trailers. I have worked in 6 different states. I invested money into CE for implants and took great pride in building my skills and becoming an expert. I am very good at what I do, but it doesn't seem to matter.
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Ak
3/5/2019 06:38:29 am
So true . I have been through everything you have mentioned above and got burnt out in corporate dentistry . I barely slept , ate or functioned. My marriage was failng. My whole life I feel has been for nothing as now I can barely work in this field. I'm not sure what to do next. On top of all this depression has set in. Like you said if there is a way out I will be 2end in line to slither out....
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Pope A.
2/14/2019 06:06:48 am
Oh Gosh I am having such a bad week that these comments eased my pain.I've been a dentist for 6 years and wanted to quit since forever but didn't ever had the courage to do it.I have no student loans and been saving up money for a future "way out".Don't know what exactly but I find myself drained mentally and emotionally just because of "what if this goes wrong","another crying baby","another extraction".Believe me I tried solving my problems I've been to therapists and gave this profession a chance,tried not to abandon.But I can actually feel how it kills me inside and don't know if it's normal for the job to influence so more of my existence.The thing is I am sad in a way so many of us feel so stuck and unhappy because if I were a patient I would like to a professional who finds a bit of joy in his work.I think the personality is extremely important.Me I just get extreme boredom talking about treatment plans and costs that I am surprised my patients don't notice it and I am not such a people person so I have to push myself to be one everyday.I like people but just don't want to approach them as a dentist.I really hope to find something else and be happier........
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Ak
3/1/2019 02:09:28 pm
I felt your post was describing the story of my life. I'm at a point that I'm soo depressed that I can't work anymore. I gave tried to make it work but I don't have the energy to try anymore. I hope I can find peace and escape this profession.
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ot
2/18/2019 05:11:39 pm
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Giving Up
2/20/2019 08:49:12 am
I was talking to a fellow dentist the other day over supper. I told him the last time I remember having a good day in dentistry was back on May 23, 2009.
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Drill Fill and Bill
2/26/2019 05:46:10 am
Giving up- I hear you loud and clear. Even when a case goes right and the patient is happy the negative thought of potential failure never leaves your thoughts. Dentists carry lots of baggage in their heads. How much of it can we jam into our minds? Into our brains? There’s only so much water you can put into a balloon before it bursts.
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Giving Up
2/26/2019 02:17:05 pm
There's really nothing positive I can say about being a dentist. I'm looking for a new career now. It will be a financial bloodbath but my nerves are shot from being in this horrible career.
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Teeth92
2/27/2019 05:10:43 pm
It’s better to be healthy and happy. I sold my private practice after 24 years , left and went to work 2 days a week as a DDS now. I make so much less money and it’s worth every bit of it to be happy. Focus on your well being. We DDS get so focused on the money. The vast majority of Americans live on much less than we make.
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??
2/28/2019 05:45:20 am
Teeth92 - it would be so helpful if my spouse could talk to you. Would you be willing to contact me at this temporary email address? [email protected]
Dr A
4/2/2019 01:56:19 pm
I did something very similar. Closed my practice of 11 years in 2016. With 20 years of experience, I now work on my own terms as an independent contractor about 3 days a week. Every owner I work with is suffering. Dentistry is still stressful, but at least it is not ruining my life like it once used to. After a long recovery, I was able to regain my happiness.
Ak
3/1/2019 02:04:30 pm
I feel your pain . I hate being in this profession too. I am lookibg for ways to get out, still haven't found one.
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Drill Fill and Bill
3/2/2019 07:28:31 am
When you quit and come up with an idea for another profession please let me know. I've been wanting to get out for the last 10 years
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Depressed
3/1/2019 02:00:15 pm
I have been in this field 10 years and I have hated every second. Now I am at a point of not being able to practice. My depression is so severe I don't think I will ever feel happy again. I don't have the energy to start another career from scratch. I constantly worry about how I have let my family down. I hate this crushing pain I have in my heart for all the wasted efforts . I pray I can come to terms with my hated career.
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Teeth92
3/1/2019 02:14:18 pm
Depressed. You will get much better. Depression is treatable. You have not let your family down or anyone else. Your family needs and loves you. Please stay in close touch with your friends and family. Therapy worked wonders for me. Things will get better.
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Drill Fill and Bill
3/2/2019 07:37:57 am
Depressed-I went thru what you are experiencing and was forced by my wife to seek professional help. Did it make me enjoy dentistry? Not at all...still despise it. But talking to a therapist about everything I dislike about dentistry made me feel a bit better about myself. Its important to eat well, exercise and realize that your family loves you and needs you.
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??
3/2/2019 08:26:53 am
Yes, get professional help. My spouse, and maybe other dentists, think they can take care of it themselves since they know a bit about medicine. But they can't, and the longer it's delayed, the worse it gets. My spouse has been seeing a therapist for months, but CBT alone wasn't enough. They got so low, ended up in the ER with practically a nervous breakdown. That finally got them to commit to see a psychiatrist for the right meds. It's hard enough to find psychiatrists as it is that have openings ......not sure how many specialize in doctors, but make an appt before you are in a crisis. This affects everything - our family, marriage, of course the production at the office, increased medical bills.........but I am hopeful with help and support the downward spiral will reverse direction.
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Grieving
3/2/2019 07:41:57 am
For Depressed. Your post alarmed me because it sounded like my brother. He did not end well. If your family is feeling that you have let them down, tell them about my brother, and the many other dentists who let guilt, shame and depression send them into an irreversible downward vortex. Do whatever you need to to get your mind in a better place.
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Teeth92
3/2/2019 07:46:45 am
DFB is 100% correct. I hated the idea of going to a therapist too. I am more introverted . But the right therapist makes all the difference. I would suggest trying to find a PhD psychologist who works with MDs and DDSs . Also PhDs understand the rigors of dental school and trying to make a living ! When I went my therapist helped me with devising a plan to leave private practice and just working on that made me feel better about going into the office to drill and fill. Therapy also helped me realized how depressed I was ! We need an objective professional to evaluate our mental status so we don’t spiral into unthinkable self harm .
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Depressed
3/2/2019 03:04:39 pm
Thank you all for your kind words. I am going for therapy and I look forward the whole week for that one hour where I can talk my heart out. I will keep trying to make my life tolerable with reading this blog, therapy and family support.
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Dr Sayed
3/5/2019 04:58:45 am
As much as we find Dentistry stressful and taxing with patients not willing to commit to their own oral health improvement we have to realize that this is not the problem. Dental students need to be educated on the stresses, importance of business knowledge, time management and people skills. The fault lies in an education focused solely on treating disease which actually makes up only about 30% of Private Practice.
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Dr Catt
3/17/2019 11:07:47 pm
I agree with everything that has been posted and more. I don't know if anyone even likes being a dentist. For some reason in the mid-90's to early 2000's the media loved to say how much money dentists made, so it seemed kids were going to dental school in droves. Many are probably very unhappy. How is it going to end?
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Giving Up
3/19/2019 07:20:26 am
Half of the dental schools need to close and the remaining schools need to cut the class size in half. The requirements to get in need to be more difficult.
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Thomas Zupancic
3/20/2019 11:53:20 am
We are able to affect health so much but the system has ruined it.We need to team up to deal with this situation.It truly is not an easy life.
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Retired DDS
3/24/2019 02:33:28 am
Hello, you all!
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Teeth92
3/24/2019 06:09:10 am
Congratulations Retired DDS! You survived! May I ask you what age you were able to escape !
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Drill Fill and Bill
3/24/2019 08:46:57 pm
Hopefully he was able to retire before 90.
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Leave of Absence - should I go back?
3/25/2019 03:06:33 pm
After reading on so many perspectives on dentistry, it's hard to ignore that the profession has been changing (albeit, for the worse?). I recently took a leave of absence from dental school because I found working with my hands to be a bit tedious, and practice in preclinic has already made my neck and back sore. I'm not super passionate already about this field, but I'm wondering if I stay, would my feelings be different once I am actually paid for the job? If I were to go back to dental school for purely financial reasons, is it worth it for me? Tuition is about 300k in my current program. Instead, I was thinking about getting into computer programming, pursuing a post-bacc to get a BS in CS in two years for ~27k since the tech field is currently booming, and continuing to grow. Would it be foolish of me to give up my current seat for another field? I was always interested in healthcare since high school because I like helping people, but seeing many of these comments made me realize that most people would probably be ungrateful of the help I would give them as a dentist. Any opinions would be very much appreciated!
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Giving Up
3/25/2019 04:48:16 pm
For God sake run from dentistry. It is a lifetime of misery, constant financial duress, marital/relationship strain and you will be mentally unstable for the rest of your life. PLEASE go in a different direction to find peace and purpose. Dentistry is the most stressful and disastifying career choice out there. A coo-coo clock repairman will make more money than a dentist when you look at the overall bottom line .
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Teeth92
3/25/2019 04:54:20 pm
There are too many dentists nowadays and fees are falling. Dentistry had better times in the past. I think a bright young person would be better pursuing computer science, biotechnology or engineering. It simply costs too much to be a dentist and takes too much time. Also , becoming an owner is difficult with so many corporations in the dental business.
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Giving Up
3/25/2019 05:25:04 pm
Teeth 92 is spot on.
??
3/26/2019 04:30:54 am
I am not a dentist - but am married to and have worked with one for 30 yrs. If you do not love the profession, have a strong sense of self-esteem and good mental health, this is not the career for you. Do not go into it for money, because you probably won't make as much as you might think. There are people who do love dentistry and have found a way to make it lucrative - but you won't hear from them on this blog!
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Suzie
3/26/2019 04:00:59 pm
I am a dentist with the qualities you listed and I still hate it. I know plenty of other dentists with good mental health and strong self esteem who hate it and struggle as well. I also know some dentists who have lucrative practices and are unethical with their treatment planning (over treating). I don't think most non-dentists can understand the hell that is dentistry. Being married to a dentist and working in an office is a different ballgame. I don't think you or any nondentist can understand the dread that forms after you have done this day after day and have to wake up to do it all over again. The demands of working as a dentist for a corporation is another layer of hell on top of private practice.
Giving Up
3/26/2019 04:23:24 pm
I agree with Suzie. If you are not the actual dentist, you'll never understand the frustration, grief, and dissatisfaction of being a mentally and physically beat down honest dentist. I literally feel like I've died and gone to Hell.
Dr F
6/21/2020 11:31:51 am
Fuck off "??" As a dentist with 6 years experience living the daily struggle... Fuck off.
Giving Up
3/25/2019 05:05:44 pm
Being a dentist is horrible. You just simply can't sugar coat this profession in any way.
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??
3/26/2019 05:02:25 pm
Suzie, I understand and agree with what you're saying, but I think you misinterpreted my reply. I was saying to "Leave of Absence" - who said they weren't super-passionate about dentistry and wondering if it was the right career for them - that because it is so tough/stressful/etc, if you don't love it already, or if you have health issues, it will be even harder for them. I know the problem is not with the dentists - it is with the dentistry, patients and the insurance industry. And although I don't hold the drill, I have suffered alongside my spouse, who does have mental health issues, and I've have seen it beat them down to the point of being hospitalized for a nervous breakdown.
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Teeth92
3/26/2019 05:56:00 pm
I totally get what ?? is saying and it’s good to hear from spouses of dentists too ! I think spouses can give us an unique insight into our profession.
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??
3/27/2019 05:44:00 am
Yes - my spouse and I are very empathetic....and have "lost" so much money that we could have charged out or didn't treatment plan, because it didn't seem right.
Suzie
3/26/2019 10:49:19 pm
It does. It beats down even the strong among us is what I am saying. Your spouse is not alone, it is having a detrimental effect on many of our mental states and lives. Of course, the families and staff suffer as a result as well.
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Drill Fill and Bill
3/28/2019 07:17:18 am
Teeth 92 nailed it by saying if you’re an empathetic person this profession will destroy you. I am both compassionate and empathetic.To hear patients say every day they hate going to dentist and that they hate seeing you just eats me alive from the core of my soul. LEAVE OF ABSENCE...if you have your doubts about this profession, run like hell from dentistry and don’t look back. Go with your instincts. If you don’t like it now chances are you won’t ever like it. I’m in my mid 50’s and not a day goes by where I contemplate my past and wonder what my life would be like if I chose another career path. My body is destroyed. My soul cries. And my mental health has suffered. “The greatest agony of the soul is to live in the wonder of what might have been.”
Dr. Catt
4/4/2019 11:52:57 am
One thing I hate is that I went to school for eight damn years to be a dentist and now my practice and livelihood is being held hostage by people who don't even have a bachelors degree. Today my assistant called in sick (for the 3rd time in the last 2 months leaving me to scramble to reschedule patients), my hygienist is whining how she wants to leave at 2:45 PM every day because "the days are too long, and she's tired," but she also wants a raise, and my front desk person doesn't like either of them and they don't like her, and they tell me all about it. I can probably replace the whole staff but then I'll just get a new set of problems. I know, because I've been down that road before.
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Teeth92
4/4/2019 12:24:11 pm
Dr Catt, this is one of the major issues I had over owning for 24 years before selling my practice. I can’t think of another profession that works so closely with people of such disparate educations - it’s a very lonely way to work. The vast majority of my staff had high school educations with some community college training and they never left their hometowns. I was always jealous of my husband who is an engineer because he worked only with engineers , scientists, and other type of PhDs.
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Dr. Catt
4/4/2019 01:37:24 pm
Teeth 92, what do you do now, if I may ask? How long ago did you sell, and was it difficult, financially?
Giving Up
4/4/2019 01:47:13 pm
You almost have to consider hiring nothing but hygienists. They have built in education and motivation. In the long run it makes life smoother.
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Teeth92
4/4/2019 02:18:50 pm
Dr Catt, I sold my practice for the listing price and now I work 2 days a week at a public health clinic . I was lucky that both my husband and I saved a lot so neither of us are married to our jobs. I will say with all the ways dentistry is changing it makes a lot of sense to me if someone is struggling with owning to sell your practice at its top value and then work for someone else without all the stress of ownership.
Teeth92
4/4/2019 02:22:26 pm
Sold 3 years ago. My dad retired at 58 and my mom retired at 55 so both my husband and I had mid to late 50s as a goal to scale back on our careers.
Dr. Catt
4/14/2019 02:56:40 pm
Tomorrow is Monday. Who is looking forward to work?
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Giving Up
4/14/2019 02:59:54 pm
Not me. Another week of Hell. Another dreaded week of dentistry.
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Teeth92
4/14/2019 04:43:29 pm
Giving Up, If I may ask are you able to work a 4 day week or another type of schedule that is lighter so you can work less? Dentistry is very tough !
D
4/15/2019 10:46:57 am
I don't work now and I'm so happy but I know this is just for a short time. I would be so anxious by Sunday Thinking of ways to not go into work. Then think and dream of winning a lottery some day. After years n years of school n sacrifice I never even had a clue that life as a dentist would be like this.
Teeth92
4/14/2019 04:56:24 pm
Dr Catt, I also hated Mondays because that’s when my staff usually a RDH would call in sick that morning and we would have to reschedule “mad” pts or an assistant would call in sick when I had a big procedure scheduled. Total stress all day long.
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Teeth92
4/14/2019 04:40:26 pm
Me. Only because I sold my practice 3 years ago! And I work 8 hours tomorrow at a public health clinic and then 1/2 day on Thursday. I usually work 2 days a week at the clinic. I have no Sunday night blues nowadays but for 24 years I would get sick starting around 6pm on Sunday nights. I admire all FT DDS. I was a solo owner for 24 years and then my mind and body just said NO!
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Dds mess
4/19/2019 08:15:02 pm
I am so happy to have found this thread...i have been smiling all week knowing i am not alone in all these thoughts. It is so refreshing to hear strong minded individuals speaking free...like some sane person that has been institutionalized (in the cult of dentistry) and is secretly not swallowing their "dentistry is great" pills. I too want freedom. I am willing to go live in a shack in the woods and eat grubs so i do not have to go full time again, but for me the hardest thing has been breaking the mental chains of what is expected...full time..private practice..be successful..give your kids the same opportunity (i actually love my kids so will not do that to them. People look at me like i am a drug addict when i tell them i work two or three days a week and take 2 months off a year...all part of the sacrifice i call karmic unwinding. I may never retire but i don't think i will live that long anyway because dentistry kills so i am living the life i want now...sorry kids if you have to go to community college.
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Teeth92
4/19/2019 08:30:44 pm
Thanks for sharing. As time goes on breaking those mental chains of what is expected( FT private practice till 65 and loving dentistry) gets so much easier and you will begin to laugh at the absurdity of the cult of dentistry. And it is so fake. I know so many dentists that fake it every day at the office but inside they are dying. You are smart to live the life you want now!
chronicallyunhappydds
11/20/2019 05:44:48 am
You just mirrored my thoughts. i could not have written how i feel better than this. Just waiting for a chance to get out of this mess. i can barely work 2 days.I am too burnt out. i am still struggling with expectation of family. i feel guilty for feeling this way. Everybody in my extended family thinks i am living a dream life and don't understand why i complain so much . If only they knew!!!. i keep doing this thinking the meager savings will help me in my old age and my darling daughter. what a joke. i hope all this is worth it in the end.
pulpalhaze
4/18/2019 09:02:15 am
Hi Blogger DDS and everyone else,
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Dr OZHMN
4/19/2019 11:55:33 pm
I'm a dentist from india with a specialization in oral Pathology. I picked Oral Pathology as my field after my years in dental school convinced me that conventional dentistry wasn't my cup of tea.
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Christopher Antczak
4/21/2019 09:51:07 pm
I would like to thank all of the dentists who have been brave enough to post such honest comments. The dentist who created this blog displayed a stroke of genius. This is the best system of emotional support I have ever found in 20 years of dentistry. If there are any dentists interested in amplifying this network to a greater level of awareness, please contact me.
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Teeth92
4/22/2019 05:22:19 am
I find this blog very comforting. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. I attended dental meetings for years and no one ever mentions their issues and everyone smiles and acts as if they love dentistry. I thought I was just weak.
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Dr A
4/22/2019 10:05:51 pm
The only solution to this massive epidemic of individual dentist vs corporate is for dentists to create a national labor union. It is already being done in California and Washington where healthcare providers are being totally manipulated.
pulpalhaze
4/22/2019 11:30:34 am
Christopher, there doesn't seem to be a way to contact Blogger DDS??
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??
4/22/2019 01:34:04 pm
I don't think there is....and I'm not sure there's a way to delete your comment or name once it has posted.
Dr A
4/22/2019 10:19:28 pm
If Blogger DDS followed his own advice, he is either not practicing dentistry anymore or single-handedly figured out how to beat the system. He could also use a pseudonym if he ever decided to post.
HateThis
4/23/2019 07:58:07 pm
I am certainly interested in amplifying the support system. Any suggestion on the logistics of that? The thought of going to a support meeting is something a younger me would have laughed at, but the past 10 years of dentistry have been lonely, miserable and isolating that I'd be willing to try anything. Between the dim bulb assistants, bully corporate office managers and anxious patients, I have nothing left at the end of the day. I was so excited the day I got accepted to dental school and now I hate this field.
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??
4/24/2019 04:59:01 am
Our state dental association offers a support group for members (which we are not).......
??
4/24/2019 05:18:23 am
ooops......which we are not members of
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Dr. C
4/24/2019 06:28:42 am
Someone could start a new forum only for dentists. It could need a password to post and the password could be administered after someone applies with their NPI number. That way it could be limited to dentists only and not the public. Dentists could still post anonymously, though.
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Dr A
4/24/2019 11:51:30 am
Good idea. The best-rated blog site I found was wordpress.org. A larger support system exclusive to dentists would be ideal. We all know these problems are not going away unless us dentists can figure out a solution to preserve our profession.
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??
4/24/2019 01:19:43 pm
One thing that could be a goal of a new group would be to discuss solutions (like pupalhaze tried to do) and not just commiserate about the problems.
DRILL FILL BILL
4/24/2019 11:21:22 am
The first thing I do when I come into the office in the morning is look at end of the schedule to see if I can leave early. At the end of the day I feel hollow, beaten down and drained emotionally and physically. This is a sick, twisted profession where we are trained in dental school to focus on the fear of failure. Short margins. Proper contact. Proper occlusion. Proper esthetics. What other professions measure success and failure in half millimeters...or even less? I've seen it all and done it all and there is nothing else I can get out of this profession. My mental and physical well being have suffered greatly over the past few years that I dont recognize myself anymore. The things I used to find fun and enjoyable I not longer have interest in. When I look at myself I dont see the person I was or the person I thought I would be.
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Teeth92
4/24/2019 12:25:12 pm
DFB sums up my feelings exactly. I know many other DDSs who feel exactly the same way. In short, it’s a toxic work environment with staff drama and demanding patients. The sooner one can get out the better for most DDSs. I hated trying to perform perfect dentistry everyday in an inhospitable environment. And also knowing if the pt left the practice there could be another DDS telling the pt that all their previous treatment needs to be redone. And pts would threaten to call the board or sue. Totally overrated career.
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Dr. C
4/24/2019 12:42:03 pm
Dentistry is a great career--for the DENTAL STAFF! They never have to work weekends, holidays, or nights and they don't have the stress of paying the bills. And they repay you by not showing up for work, calling in sick when they aren't, and creating stupid drama. Yes, dentistry is an awesome career for everyone but the dentist.
Teeth92
4/24/2019 05:00:53 pm
I think the constant debt to pay staff , pay student loans , pay practice loans is overwhelming. I always felt I was working to pay the staff and their benefits. Where I practiced RDHs are 40 dollars an hr , 20-25 dollars an hr for assts and front desk.
Giving Up
4/24/2019 02:47:07 pm
The problem is that there is no solution. It's like being in Hell.
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Betty DDS
4/24/2019 05:07:25 pm
A dentist only group would be a great start. Commiserating about the problems is what happens here because there aren't solutions aside from getting out of dentistry. That isn't easy to do. It's easy to belittle a problem you've never experienced. That is what happens when staff chimes in on this board. Some problems don't have solutions. The degeneration of the field of dentistry is a fact at this point. This is not going to be solved with a morning meeting, a box of donuts, or an attitude adjustment.
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??
4/28/2019 05:30:40 am
Betty, I'm not belittling anything. I am commiserating as well. I may not be a dentist (but I'm also not a "dim bulb" staff) and I have worked alongside my spouse and suffered with them for 30 years....it has fairly well "wrecked" my life and our family too.
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Pulpalhaze
4/27/2019 09:09:07 pm
Ok, step one is done:
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Dr A
4/28/2019 10:37:56 am
Pulpalhaze, you seem to have the same desire as I do to push this idea to a broader scope. This current site is great for emotional support, but for real solutions, dentists will have to group together (possibly in a political manner). I would like to help create a larger site via the internet, but trust and security will be a huge factor if a large number of dentists will be interested in even participating. Let me know your thoughts.
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??
4/28/2019 11:10:12 am
Not sure how you could absolutely verify participants are dentists....any staff, spouse or patient for that matter, can access the NPI or license #. And yes, security is paramount.....notice I have not revealed our gender - only use the words spouse or they.
pupalhaze
4/29/2019 09:44:06 am
I am not sure how an attempt to engage in some kind of political action would be possible without having to identify oneself at some point (e.g. sending a petition) and thereby become a potential target or lose patients who investigate closely.
AD
4/28/2019 12:44:47 am
Has anyone considered changing the scope of your practice while still being within dentistry, for example being a dentist and the scope of work that comes with it is very stressful mentally; but has anyone considered shifting to less stressful dental work, possibly assuming the role of a hygienist instead, less money yes but still being able to pay bills but more importantly less of dealing with those common patient complains from general or specialist dentistry
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??
4/28/2019 05:32:52 am
I sometimes think our hygienist makes more than the dentist, by the time you subtract overhead and hours put in the lab, etc not to mention the stress.
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Teeth92
4/28/2019 07:56:53 am
I think some hygienists do make more per hour than the owner dentist. And every RDH I’ve employed wanted a raise every year. In my area RDHs get at least 40 dollars per hour with no call or responsibility for the office. It’s the best return on investment for any degree- only 2 years of community college.
Teeth92
4/28/2019 07:59:28 am
I think changing the scope of your practice is a great idea or reducing the hours you work as a DDS worked for me.
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Suzie
4/28/2019 08:51:18 am
I know of a dentist who specialized in endo after 10 years as a GP, it is a band aid solution. He still has all the crap of dentistry plus relying on referrals. Suggesting we should be a hygienist doesn't make much sense. I've spent a few hundred thousand on dental school and another 50K on implant education. Am I really supposed to scrape teeth all day and say, "the doctor will come do your exam now" and wait for someone else to come in the room? Seriously? Would anyone tell physicians in a hospital to go be a nurse? Being demoted within the same 4 walls is hardly a solution.
AD
4/28/2019 09:26:53 am
Dear Suzie,
??
4/28/2019 10:26:27 am
Adding to AD's comment..........taking a lesser/simpler role could provide income while allowing one time to prepare to make a complete career change.
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Suzie
4/28/2019 11:01:54 am
I am not replying in a retaliating manner, this is just logic. Cutting down on hours is different, and possibly helpful to anyone who is burned out in any field, as a general rule.
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AD
4/28/2019 11:27:22 am
Well this is how I think of it, and this is just me, it doesn’t have to apply to everyone.
Suzie
4/28/2019 12:53:23 pm
AD, are you a dentist? Have you switched to working only as a hygienist? How is that working for you?
Pulpalhaze
4/28/2019 01:18:56 pm
If memory serves, Dentaltown requested license numbers when signing up. I don’t think it a big potential problem: who would bother to pose as a dentist just to listen to them complain and commiserate? As long as everyone uses an alias when posting, just in case, I don’t imagine negative consequences. Besides, I envision someone moderating to ensure at least a minimum of decorum. FWIW, Dentaltown is an amazing resource, and there are also threads from those who are struggling. Unfortunately, you also get a lot of people telling folks like us to “ just suck it up” “ beats digging ditches “, etc.
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AD
4/28/2019 01:48:36 pm
Dear Suzie,
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Teeth92
4/28/2019 02:34:05 pm
Thank you AD for sharing this. Congrats for getting out of the mouth! Sounds like the dentist who is practicing as a hygienist is happy. And that is the definition of success to me. You both are happier in your new roles and you are both helping people. I was a practice owner for 24 years and I sold and became a public health dentist for 2 days a week. It is much simpler and I just do basic bread and butter dentistry but I am the happiest I have been in dentistry.
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disenchanted
4/29/2019 08:29:38 pm
Thank you for your kind words. Apparently my response garnered some hostility. I posted only because my story is true, and I felt bad that AD was attacked for an idea that is not ludicrous in my opinion since I chose this route along with a few others. I've nothing to gain by posting this, just wanted to put in my two cents with all the other miserable dentists on here. I've been following this site for 2 years, and it is quite therapeutic. Won't be posting again after seeing how it stirred up some serious egos. Sheesh. Good luck out there everyone. Hope you find your solutions and please stop attacking those who found theirs even if you find it beneath you.
pulpalhaze
4/29/2019 08:47:38 am
Others will disagree, of course, but I am all for hearing all ideas, even the counterintuitive ones, because certainly the obvious ones haven't worked or don't apply. I agree that becoming a hygienist with a DDS is huge drop in status and income, and I don;t think my ego would handle it well, but for SOMEONE, it clearly has been a viable solution, and thus deserves consideration based on that alone.
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Suzie
4/28/2019 03:09:22 pm
You're welcome, AD.
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disenchanted
4/28/2019 10:13:35 pm
I am a dentist. Sold my practice in 2017 and became a hygienist at a non-profit clinic. I don't care what anyone thinks about my decision and am a million times happier. Had my own practice for 11.5 years and hated it. It was very successful. Practiced for 4.5 years at a group practice prior to starting my own. I'm over it. There are 4 other dentists in town who did the same thing; they're all hygienists now. So, not unheard of and not a crazy suggestion, even if many get offended by it. Paid off my horrendous debt in 2011. Paid for college and dental school myself and worked my ass off to do so like many people on here. Happiness wins. Stress is a beast.
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Teeth92
4/29/2019 03:14:40 am
Congratulations for finding happiness. Stress is a killer. You have most likely extended your life by decades and you have definitely improved the quality of your life. As a hygienist, you still make more than the average family in the US. Thank you for sharing your story.
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disenchanted
4/29/2019 08:32:33 pm
I just posted my response to your words in the wrong spot above. Thanks again for your kindness.
drjohn
4/29/2019 12:26:50 am
why stop there??? let's all become assistants!
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Dr. C
4/29/2019 06:43:03 am
Okay, people want some some solutions, here they are. They may not be workable, but just read it and think about it.
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pulpalhaze
4/29/2019 09:11:57 am
Dr.C
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DRILL FILL AND BILL
4/29/2019 08:25:30 am
With all due respect Dr. C, although your comments may make sense on paper or on a blog they make very little sense to the people who post here on this site. Banding together and lobbing to insurance commissions are a complete waste of time as they have been and always will fall on deaf ears. Don't you think the ADA would have done something about this already. And don't get me going on the ADA. Biggest scam going in our profession next to dental insurance companies. What exactly does the ADA do with their dues exactly?? Its a joke. Most likely the insurance commissioners are in bed with the insurance companies just like politicians are in bed with big pharma companies. Starting meetings in towns to address dental insurance issues are a complete waste of time. Comical really. Who really cares about the shitty reimbursements dentists get except the dentists themselve?!? Read all the posts here... the majority of dentists who post on this site are sick and tired of the profession and everything that goes along with it. Most are looking for ways to get out of this sick and twisted profession or are posting to vent their frustrations and not ways to be more profitable.
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Dr. C
4/29/2019 08:34:06 am
Drill, Fill, and Bill, no I don't think the ADA would have done lobbied the insurance commission to ensure that reimbursements are paid directly to the dentists because many of the upper echelons of the ADA are closely involved with HMOs. In fact, when I started dentistry the ADA strongly encouraged joining HMOs.
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Dr. C
4/29/2019 09:08:12 am
To continue, in fact, the AGD was formed because many dentists thought the ADA didn't represent them. And to my knowledge, the ADA has never even addressed the Delta Dental reimbursement issue. Besides, this doesn't have to be done at the national level. It can be done in individual states. If you don't want to bother, don't. But other dentists can address it for their state and lobby their state legislators and their insurance commissioner. If a law is passed that all insurance companies must pay the dentist rather than the policy holder as long as their is an assignment of benefits, then insurance companies that don't comply can't do business in that state. Employers who want to employees dental benefits will have to buy from other dental insurance companies who do reimburse the dentist.
pulpalhaze
4/29/2019 09:04:23 am
Drill, Fill, and Bill:
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Dr. C
5/1/2019 07:10:55 pm
Pulpalhaze, I do remember that push to bill fee for service and let the patient file their own insurance. Yes, it didn't work out so well. That's why something needs to change. I'm cutting costs in my professional and personal life to save money to leave dentistry behind. I can't wait to wake from this nightmare.
??
5/2/2019 04:44:30 am
Yes, there are 50 dentists within a 5 mile radius of us - all take insurance - if we were to go FFS, what do you think would happen? We pay dearly for our own health insurance, no way would I go out of network.
RJ
4/29/2019 08:31:51 am
Unbelievable that that someone who never posted in the last 5 years this suddenly finds this site and has a story of 5 dentists in one town working as hygienists the very same day that AD suggests it. Nearly all dentists would laugh at something that silly. Do you see a small buccal caries you could fix in 5 minutes and run away? Tooth flapping in the breeze needs an extraction? Too hard? What a joke. Truly unbelievable!
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Suzie
4/29/2019 09:56:37 pm
I think Drill Fill Bill said it best when he said, "the majority of dentists who post on this site are sick and tired of the profession and everything that goes along with it." Exactly. Looking for a way to get out of it completely as a goal...being a hygienist simply doesn't solve any of that. The spit, blood, the isolation, the staff, the insurance companies, patients, back strain, the fact that corporations are rapidly taking over dentistry -it's all still there.
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HateThis
4/29/2019 11:16:53 pm
I agree with Suzie. You can switch from the fryer to the drive thru window but at the end of the day you still go home reeking of french fries.
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Teeth92
4/30/2019 06:58:42 am
Thanks for the great laugh this morning -HateThis!
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DRILL FILL AND BILL
5/1/2019 06:49:40 am
Thats a great analogy! Now if I translate that to our wonder profession it would go something like this..."You can switch from being a dentist to a hygienist but at the end of the day you still go home reeking of dental office stench."
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HateThis
5/1/2019 10:26:08 pm
Exactly.
Giving Up
4/30/2019 07:36:47 am
The idea of being a dental auxiliary is not a bad idea. I believe that I would rather shift to being a dental supply salesman or a lab tech before being a hygienist. Just my preference. Being a dentist has destroyed my life.
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Dr. C
4/30/2019 08:15:55 am
You could also go into teaching. You could teach assisting, hygiene, or at a dental school. If you don't want to teach anything in dentistry you could teach at a community college. You could teach whatever your Bachelors degree was in. Most community colleges require at least a Masters degree, but as a dentist you're a doctor, so you have that requirement. I know many people who teach at a community college in their major, but their Masters degree is in education.
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Drill Fill and Bill
5/1/2019 11:49:09 am
Its really sad to imagine and admit to the fact that being a dentist has destroyed my life but its accurate. Dentistry is destroying my life...and once I quit hopefully I will find that joy once again and allow it to fill my heart
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Teeth92
5/1/2019 12:10:28 pm
I hope you find peace soon DFB- it’s just a job. Things will get better.
pulpalhaze
5/2/2019 01:20:35 pm
The issue with sales is the travel, and of course, the drastic drop in income. Of course, I don't assume everyone in practice hates it as much as I do, but those who APPEAR successful (who really knows, right?) either work a lot, or have people working for them, and the latter seems a logical consideration for those who own their own practices. Granted, there are some business issues to learn, but hiring the right people (ie. those with good business sense) makes a world of difference.
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Regret17
5/1/2019 05:48:46 pm
I have been in practice for 17 years and am absolutely miserable. Although I am not happy about all the comments I have read, it is an odd feeling of relief to know that so many others feel the same way. Whenever I attend a class or dental meeting it seems that everyone is too worried about appearance of being successful and would never be honest about how they truly feel about the profession. Thanks to all of you for sharing.
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Dr. C
5/1/2019 06:56:18 pm
I felt the same way, that everyone was more successful than me. Then I drastically cut costs by reducing staff and cutting benefits to maximize my profits, all of which I saved. I have a number in mind and when I reach that number I'm quitting dentistry.
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??
5/3/2019 05:18:57 am
Has anyone here looked into being a consultant for insurance companies?
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Category 3
5/4/2019 03:47:48 pm
There are only 2 players in insurance consulting, Cigna and Metlife. I have a friend who worked for both. How does $33 hr strike your fancy? That’s right, you get paid far less than a hygienist, have no benefits, and work behind a miserable cubicle all day processing claims. Oh, and they only hire 12 consultants, most of whom are retir3d and don’t want to practice or are disabled. Can’t make a living off of $33 hr as a dentist esp if you have student loans. The only solution to this shit profession is to get out, full stop
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??
5/5/2019 04:27:21 am
really? wow. just wow. What do you mean by players? Doesn't every company have dentists review claims? Yes, I can imagine it's pretty boring just looking at claims.
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category 3
5/5/2019 07:28:25 am
Yeah, he said it’s a tedious, job depressing job with no human contact
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Giving Up
5/7/2019 08:20:40 am
Does anyone know of any classes that can be taken that teaches people how to cope with hateful, ungrateful, demanding, and impatient schmucks?
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Dr. C
5/7/2019 08:51:06 am
Are we talking about the staff, the patients, or both?
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Giving Up
5/7/2019 10:19:46 am
Just patients
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Dr. C
5/7/2019 10:30:24 am
That was a joke :) Right now I have tons of employee drama.
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Giving Up
5/7/2019 10:52:39 am
LOL. I almost said both as I had my share of employees causing grief.
Tony
5/8/2019 09:13:01 am
I'm in my 17th year and I'm burnt out. I like dentistry and if I could work at a local public health clinic I might do that. I like helping people and the relationships I've made but the financial stress of owning a practice sucks! I still live paycheck to paycheck. I owned a practice for 10 years, got burnt out and sold it. I worked corporate but got fired because I wasn't productive enough. I worked as an associate but I hated the lack of control.. . so I bought another practice that should have been great (It's pretty good) but the buildings owner is thinking about scraping it and redeveloping it. He wants me in it but how I can I relocate for one year? ugh. No, I wouldn't go into dentistry again..
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Dr Fred
5/10/2019 05:28:21 am
I am newly retired after 22 years. What I would recommend to a new Dental School graduate is keep that crap car and stay single for 10 years. Live cheap and pay off loans, pay off house, pay off car, etc. Then quit and do something you love that probably pays much less. You should be still in your late thirtys. Now your assets are debt free and untouchable in a divorce because they are premarital. Now you can look at getting married, getting in shape, and enjoying the rest of your life. I feel a full 20 plus years of dentistry will either give you deep depression, make you an ugly person, or give you cancer.
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Giving Up
5/10/2019 08:15:20 am
I couldn't have said it better. Basically you're saying there is no positive motivation to be a dentist. I have been miserable for a long time and debts keep me trapped in this sucky profession.
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Teeth92
5/10/2019 08:24:39 am
Dr Fred gives the best advice ever.
Depressed
5/16/2019 07:07:29 am
You are spot on. Wow !very accurate.I have been practicing 10 years and pretty miserable. Cut down to a day so now I can tolerate it but I feel terrible about not helping with bills.
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Depressed
5/16/2019 07:02:39 am
I am so thankful I found this blog. For years I thought something was seriously wrong with me for feeling this miserable. Worst of all no-one to talk to and the loneliness drives me crazy. I have been perceived as a lazy entitled person when the opposite is true. I wish there was a support group for dentists like us. The most difficult is come g to terms with the fact that after so much sacrifice and hardships I still could not achieve the ability to earn the wage of an office worker. The thought of working more than a day fills me with dread. I am looking to somehow come to terms with the fact that I will have to live with this pain for the rest of my life.
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Dr. C
5/16/2019 11:20:32 am
Are you working 1 day a week as an associate? Have you thought about doing something entirely outside of dentistry?
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Depressed
5/17/2019 06:31:19 am
Yes I have many times about doing anything outside dentistry but I am physically n mentally tired. It took me years and many hardships to get the degree and I thought for some reason once I graduate all my problems will go away. I did not know that I was getting into bigger problems . my struggle now is to accept that I blundered big time by choosing the wrong profession and can't come to terms with it. I even tried to get a job as a teller but they said I was overqualified.
Dr. C
5/17/2019 08:25:07 am
Depressed, PLEASE seek counseling, it can help. Stop blaming yourself for choosing the wrong profession. We all did. It's not like you're a rapist. Cut yourself some slack.
Giving Up
5/17/2019 07:41:00 am
Dentistry is a career of depression, negativity, defensive, oppressive, and anxiety. There are very rare moments of happiness and joy as there is always someone upset and mad at you. Vacations are ineffective because they heighten your awareness of just how good life can be if I had gone another direction. We are in Hell, no doubt.
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Danster
5/22/2019 01:37:43 pm
We all went into this field as professionals with as sense of optimism. The golden age was in the 1970s and 80s. Many of us were motivated by the nice lives many dentists lived during those years. Times have changed. Costs are much higher, insurance reimbursements are getting worse, staffing costs more and more, computers and "tech" gadget cost a fortune and have to be replaced, and our society is just more demanding and self centered. End result: Burn out quickly. We should hold our heads high. We went in for the right reasons, and its not our fault it sucks.
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danster
5/22/2019 01:58:34 pm
Also,
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Dr. C
5/22/2019 03:48:57 pm
You're right, Danster. Dentistry is socialistic. I never thought of it that way before, but it is. That's why dentistry sucks.
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Blue Heron
5/28/2019 10:07:37 am
Wow- I just stumbled across this blog (obviously because I am an unhappy dentist) and all of these comments totally resonate with me. I have been practicing for 21 years. Spent almost 9 as an associate and the past 11 as a practice owner. I practiced by myself for 2 years then brought in a partner. I kept thinking with every transition that I would like dentistry better but I just don’t. I don’t have the thick skin it requires and I also get depressed and frustrated with patients attitudes towards us and the state of dentistry right now. I’m fee for service but I am not as busy as I once was and I don’t see the trend getting better as more patients refuse to pay anything out of pocket and insurance companies continue to control us. I also am in an area where we are over saturated with dentists and try as we might to differentiate ourselves and provide good quality caring service patients often go to wherever is cheapest and takes their insurance. I see dentistry as a career going downhill fast and I would love to get out. I hate going fillings and seeing miserable folks who hate the dentist. No matter what I have tried I don’t find any happiness in this career.
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Dr. C
5/28/2019 03:30:34 pm
Different dentists keep finding this forum and posting their agreement. I wonder how many dentists who have a website with them smiling at you from their great new office with fancy equipment feel this way?
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Danster
5/29/2019 09:18:22 am
Hard to say. A few come from a wealthy family, so the fancy office is basically handed over. Its comforting to vent to each other - shoulders to cry on. I cant stop dentistry and persue my dream- an airline pilot. Its just not in the cards. So, I really try to focus on the dentistry I do pretty well and stay away from as many headaches as I can. And see it as a job. Just a job. Do my best, and smile and go home and leave the stress behind. Life is short. No job is perfect. So, drink up, and think about the weekend.
Tony
5/31/2019 07:24:39 am
This site is comforting. My closest dentist friends feel the same way as I do. If we could do something else with a similar income, we would. The stress is killing me and I'm not going to be surprised when the heart attack comes. I am listing my practice privately. I have interest and if there is an offer I'll have to make a hard decision. I'll simplify the lifestyle and live within my means and (hopefully) be happier.
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Giving Up
5/31/2019 07:42:54 am
It shouldn't be a hard decision to sell your dental practice. Your happiness, sanity, and mental health should be high priority and dentistry destroys that. Dentistry will never get better for you and this not only involves your practice but the profession as a whole. Plus, you're never gonna hear patients express how much they love seeing you, they are never going to want to pay you for your hard work, dedication, and skills. You'll never be able to stop paying for dental equipment, you'll always be one patient away from a lawsuit and lose what tiny fortune you worked for. Get the Hell out of dentistry, find something worthwhile to do and be at peace. Dentistry provides only dread and mental health issues. I hope you the best.
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Teeth92
5/31/2019 09:23:20 am
Selling my practice gave me my life back. Get a valuation- you may be surprised how much equity you have. You can always make money but you can’t buy time or happiness
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Blog truth
6/4/2019 04:25:00 pm
This blog is the truth!!! If you are in a major metro get out!!! Nothing but Medicaid, and you will suffer. Move to a small town, and you can pay off your loans in about five years. Sorry guys, working in a big metro is like working for free.
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Drill Fill and Bill
6/5/2019 07:27:58 am
I've been doing dentistry for almost 30 years and I just want to allow the joy and happiness to flow back into my heart and my soul. I hope its not too late.
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Dr. C
6/5/2019 07:52:06 am
Cut down on expenses, maximize profits ethically, and then save, save, save to get out of dentistry ASAP. That's my plan.
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Teeth92
6/5/2019 08:03:52 am
I was able to sell my practice after 20 years and go to 2 days a week as an employee. I am very happy now and I hope to be totally out in 4 years. Dr C is right save, save and save. I always drove a car that was used and older than my staff’s cars . Try not to get into a doctors lifestyle and most people can leave before they die at the chair.
Danster
6/5/2019 10:34:30 am
Dr. C hit the nail. Cut costs and save save save. Live like no one else so you can live like no one else. I can't imagine the $400K debts some graduates are facing. Old car, small staff, cheap vacations, dump debt, and have the option to work for the fun of it. Or, have the option to get the hell out.
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Dr. C
6/5/2019 12:00:03 pm
Yes, Danster. Everything you said is what I am doing. I have an 8-year old car, cut my staff down (now they don't have as much down time to complain because they have more tasks), take cheap but fun vacations, have paid down my debt and am saving. Just doing this is making life easier because I see a way out, or stay in. I have options.
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Dentalstud
6/7/2019 01:00:23 pm
Hi, I'm so surprised to find this post and all the comments stating the downside of dentistry. I am a dental student who just finished my bachelor's program in dentistry, now on my way to get a dentist license and have started seeing patients in clinic. I'm not sure if dental school triggered my depression and anxiety again as they got worse after only 2 months and I need to be on medications now.
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Transitioning
3/20/2020 11:57:33 pm
Hi there, I am a dentist. I qualified in my country 8 years ago, but a few years ago, decided to retrain as a medical doctor. I'm not necessarily interested in Omfs but I found dentistry not the career I'd hoped. I think I went in to it for the wrong reasons. My orthodontist who encouraged me to be a dentist drove a ferrari and was mega rich, but that was more because of his age and that he had multiple revenue/business streams. I didn't really appreciate that when I was 13.
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Just curious
6/7/2019 02:26:49 pm
What country are you living, how many years of school do you have left, and is your dental undergrad only for dentistry or is a degree in biology, chemistry, zoology, etc? Also, if you do quit, can you go back after say, 5 years?
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Danster
6/12/2019 10:19:12 am
Dentistry:
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Dentalstud
7/4/2019 03:38:17 am
Hi and sorry for my late response. I'm living in Indonesia and my dental undergrad is for dentistry honestly.
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Drill Fill and Bill
6/17/2019 12:20:32 pm
Dentistry: The art of practicing a profession that ruins your life at a far quicker pace than if you chose a different career path
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AussieDentist
6/21/2019 08:27:40 pm
Hello to all. I commented a while ago about not knowing what joy is due to this profession. I wanted to say that I have saved, I have just resigned, I am free and I do not have any fear. I have no plans but I have faith in myself and I will find something. Going on a long trip and when I get back, I will be a changed woman. God bless you all and may you find what you need.
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Drill Fill and Bill
6/22/2019 05:15:02 am
Cheers to you Aussie Dentist. I have often dreamed and wondered what the feeling will be like when I do my last crown. My last extraction. My last restoration. I can only imagine that it would feel like removing a 60 pound stone off your shoulders. I am happy that you are able to finally take a deep breath and allow the joy back into your soul. Safe travels and enjoy your freedom and the rest of your life.
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Teeth92
6/22/2019 06:27:13 am
Congratulations Aussie Dentist! Please continue to comment about your new life post dentistry. I think your perspective could help many dentists who are still struggling. What age were you able to leave dentistry?
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AussieDentist
6/23/2019 01:28:12 am
DRILL FILL & BILL You used the same words I used in the resignation letter- weight off my shoulders that was too heavy a burden to bear. And you're right, I will soon be able to actually breathe for the first time in my life. From a warzone of a family straight into a profession where abusive hate speech is forced to be tolerated, I have finally realised that I either overdose on the nitrous or I let go. All the money in the world is not worth the anxiety, depression, late-night panic attacks, constant living in fight or flight mode, addictive coping mechanisms and having to smile whilst my character gets attacked by assholes. It never fucking ends. It was either leave or allow myself to become a misanthropic sadistic monster from empathy fatigue. Self help, personal growth, extended vacations were not cutting it. Every time I opened my heart, there would come a series of patients to direct their knives right into it. It seems my kindness was abused because patients will rarely have a go at the actual asshole dentists. Its the kind ones that get the beating. This is not a place I feel safe anymore. I finally love myself enough to let go. It doesn't matter what I do. I need some food, shelter, an occasional holiday which doesn't have to be luxury to be amazing. Relationships are key in life and that is my goal. Peace of mind is priceless. Thank you- very soon I WILL enjoy my freedom, my breath and the rest of my life. Thank you and I really wish you the same. I am so grateful to have this support.
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Teeth92
6/23/2019 06:57:58 am
Aussie Dentist , being able to leave at 33 is impressive! Great comment about this profession being the hardest on kind dentists. You have much brighter days ahead of you.
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Giving Up
6/23/2019 07:11:19 am
You are so fortunate that you have made the decision and have found a way to escape this horrible profession at such a young age. I would do anything to be able to go back 35 years and walk away from the gates of Hell I call the front door of the dental school. I have absolutely not one positive thing to say about being a dentist. I agree with you that people are so full of SEETHING HATRED towards dentists and I honestly believe legislation should be put into place to allow dentists to be able to call the police and have these monsters of hatred arrested and fined $5000 plus a month in jail because they play an epic role in causing dentists to commit suicide, go into depression, go through divorces, lose friends, lose their health and so many devastating financial losses.
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Ruined
6/23/2019 04:32:33 am
Aussie - good for you. My husband (the dentist) and myself (the front office) ran a small practice for 30 yrs with a relocation to a different state at midpoint. He has always had anxiety, social anxiety and OCD. 2 years ago he started the downward spiral of depression, panic attacks and more. He has had two rounds in a psych hospital with electric convulsive treatments and lots of meds and therapy. I tried to hold the office together with temps, but after 3 months sold the charts to the guy up the street. I bore the complete physical, mental and emotional burden of picking up the pieces while he's trying to get better. Due to poor financial decisions (in part because he hated this career) we are not in the best place at 60 yrs old. We've lost so much this year and the practice sale basically paid off some loans. However, the money doesn't even matter. Like you said, at this point I'll sell my house and live in an apartment just to feel like a normal person again. My advice to anyone who feels like this after 10 yrs of practicing - cut your losses, no matter how much you owe, and get out before it's too late and you find yourself at 60 yrs old and ruined.
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Jane
6/25/2019 10:34:38 am
Just going to leave this here..
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AussieDentist
6/25/2019 10:15:34 pm
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Ruined
6/26/2019 04:51:26 am
A few thoughts....despite all the negatives you've mentioned about patients, I must say that we have been blessed with many "good" patients who value our work and have become very dear to us. So many have reached out, prayed, cried along with me during this transition. Leaving those patients was part of the emotional pain, at least for me. Secondly, I believe God has a plan for all of us. Maybe the only way out for my husband was this way. Sometimes the forest has to burn down for new growth to come forth.
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AussieDentist
6/26/2019 05:05:08 pm
Ruined- Yes, you're right. I've been too angry to see this clearly. But what you say is true. If it was all abuse, it would be easy to leave. Its the combination of love and abuse that is hard to leave.....until disaster strikes and makes the change for you.
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dolph9
6/28/2019 02:03:34 pm
There is no way to make money anymore merely by seeing patients. Incidentally the same thing has affected medicine.
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Drill Fill and bill
6/28/2019 02:47:21 pm
Very well said Dolph9. Spot on. What really gets me is that patients expect the restorations we do to last longer than what they were born with. They couldn’t take care of their own teeth...so something artificial will last longer? Nobody can be perfect. It’s not possible. Yet our profession demands it. Very frustrating. Vince Lombardi once said that achieving perfection is not possible. But in the pursuit of perfection we can achieve excellence. That’s all we can do
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Teeth92
6/28/2019 04:07:25 pm
And it’s always the dentist fault. Pts would blame me when I found decay. I graduated in 1992 which was good up until 2008 when the economy crashed and there were tons of dentists in every town and pts got much worse. I sold my practice in 2016 and it was the best thing I ever did. Now my buyer advertises all the time - it’s not a profession anymore. We are selling services.
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Gator01
6/29/2019 12:21:44 pm
Teeth92, you got into dentistry about the time I did, too. I started in 1989. You're right, it was better then. For one thing, the insurance reimbursement was better. Remember when there was a code for local anesthetic, and the insurance paid for it? And pulp-capping, direct and indirect was also covered. So was amalgam bond. There was a code for that, too. All of these procedures were covered at 80%. And most people didn't have Delta Dental, it was a rare policy because the people who had it were told "you have bad insurance" by the dentists. All of a sudden Delta Dental is everywhere, the insurance companies eliminated all the codes except for the bare bones, and they haven't raised their maximum allowable in 20 years.
dolph9
6/29/2019 09:00:13 am
Yes, and things change in time. We are not living in 1900 or 1950, correct. Then what makes people think we are living in 1980 or 2000? Possibly because the system had already grown so large then that people thought it had become unchangeable.
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??
6/29/2019 09:13:44 am
Not even to mention, one of the changes patients want to see and the industry promotes is all the technology. Yet, it's so expensive for the solo practitioner and the insurance reimbursements never increase.
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Teeth92
6/29/2019 02:55:25 pm
??, which creates a perfect storm for corporate dentistry or large group practices instead of the solo general dentist.
Gator01
6/29/2019 12:24:55 pm
Lol, you're right. That's exactly how I feel, like a blacksmith or sword-maker. I feel like a dinosaur sometimes.
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Teeth92
6/29/2019 01:04:17 pm
Thank you for your comments Gator01, I totally agree with your assessment of dentistry in 1989. And I remembered when dental insurance was much better and dentists did not have to sign up to be “ preferred providers” . I also remember when 60% of my pts had no coverage and they appreciated my good dental care by paying me a reasonable fee for dentistry. I think the saturation of dentists combined with questionable advertising all the time led to a devaluation of our professional status. I feel like a dinosaur. I was not going to offer my pts 50 dollars for 5 star reviews or have contests that raffle prizes for reviews. I was not going to advertise that I was the best dental office in town and I was the only dentist who could do such and such. I was not going to have a Facebook page and post endless selfies of the staff. And post pictures of staff’s birthday cakes etc. So I sold because dentistry became like any other business not a healthcare profession. Dentists now have coupons like Walmart. And to some degree I get it - they are 450k in debt from student loans and 600k in debt for their office but I wanted to leave private practice on a high note.
Young Old-timer
7/2/2019 09:02:21 am
I remember when the PPO reps first came around asking docs to sign on. "You'll have a steady patient base and the reduction in fees will be more than offset by the savings from no having to market" was their big selling point. Now fast forward where virtually every dentist is signed on with one or more plans (many in most cases) and they're having to market themselves to get these patients. Insanity!
Gator01
7/3/2019 07:12:47 am
Are you still in dentistry? Have you changed your career, how you do things in dentistry, or just your attitude?
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dolph9
7/7/2019 11:49:54 am
If I told you what I do, you would hate me and tell me to get out.
??
6/29/2019 03:52:20 pm
Teeth92, you forgot to mention dentists singing and dancing to songs with their happy staff and posting the videos on their facebook pages.
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Teeth92
6/29/2019 05:53:34 pm
?? , yes thanks for bringing the dancing dentists up too !!!
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Giving Up
6/29/2019 04:03:58 pm
The staff members are happy and smiling. That's because they are getting their paychecks on a regular basis.
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Teeth92
6/29/2019 05:59:36 pm
Especially the dental hygienists! The dentist went to college for 8 years , did a residency , and is in debt up to their eyeballs while some hygienists are making 40 bucks an hour with a 2 year degree.
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harald
7/1/2019 06:58:47 am
$40/hour? We start at $42-45.. and some are getting close to $50. Along the front range of Colorado it's expected and there is huge staff turnaround as employees jump to the better paying practices with 401Ks, and full-benefits.
Teeth92
7/1/2019 07:05:34 am
Wow Harald that’s crazy and I thought 40 bucks an hour was a lot!
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Matt
7/1/2019 02:29:59 pm
I think Harald is a dentist (the "if I sell" bit).
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Tony
7/2/2019 08:33:46 am
Matt, for people to find this blog they have to search Dentistry and Sucks. LOL! That's funny. I'd love for there to be a more open yet anonymous (if desired) forum for dentists. This underground blog is satisfying in that I now know that I'm not (completely) crazy in what I'm feeling. I'm burnt out, my closest male friends are all completely burnt out .. you guys are burnt out. What if there was a group of us that could share these things more consistently? It might be therapeutic. What about a closed FB group? A place to gripe.
Drill Fill and Bill
7/2/2019 09:32:46 am
Good idea Tony for a closed FB group but not all of us are on FB...plus u need an administrator for the group and before you know it Dental ads will appear all over the page and on our own feeds. This blog is a great place to vent and to channel our frustrations. It is humorous that in order to find this blog u need to type in Dentistry and Sucks. Which is what most of us feel about our profession. I would like other people’s opinion on this: does anyone remember the anxious feeling we all had in dental school when we saw a patient? Nervous. Butterflies. Panic. Is it normal to still feel that way after doing this for 29 years???? I still do
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Dishant Shah
9/9/2022 08:55:26 pm
I am a foreign trained dentist from India. I have spent so much time, money, energy, sacrificed lot many things to finish my BDS degree. Then did 3 years MDS in OMFS. Then 3 years practice. After that I moved to canada. Gave license exams to get the license. Stuck at 3 rd exam because of covid. Waited more than 2 years to appear for it, Meanwhile Prepared for USA board exams. Applied to 14 schools. Got only 1 interview that too, I messed up my bench test. I am literally exhausted of this. I have given atleast a decade to this field and in return I just got anxiety, depression and frustration. I am really thinking that should I continue trying to get into dental school or do something else. Because I am mentally tired. Sorry for venting out. It feels like cant take this anymore.
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Giving Up
7/2/2019 10:48:55 am
Essentially the insurance companies used dentistry as a mechanism to form a ponzee scheme. They will get away with it as we hard working dentists fall to the wayside broke, divorced, unfriended by anyone close to us including family, neighbors, associates...... There is no hope for repair for this horrible situation.
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Teeth92
7/2/2019 11:09:17 am
Great observation Giving Up. I had never thought of it as a Ponzi scheme until now. Insurance companies grant large donations to dental schools and the schools are churning out more dental students than ever with lots of debt. The insurance companies have a huge supply of labor who have major debt that can’t be written off in bankruptcy.
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New to dso
7/20/2019 07:43:21 am
That's great in sight. I never thought of that. By saturating industry with so many dentists they've managed to negotiate the rates down so low that there's barely any profit.
New in dso
7/20/2019 07:40:52 am
True. I feel like friends, relatives and even family think I have it so good. They think everything is so easy and I'm so rich. And when I don't show up to functions because I'm exhausted they just assume I'm a selfish snob.
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Hard truth
7/7/2019 12:27:44 pm
I have close to 100,000 in stocks and cash. But, I have nearly 100,000 in student debt after thirteen years. Should I just cash out and pay off that unforgiving loan. Any thoughts would be appreciated. It is just miserable having that headache.
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Teeth92
7/7/2019 12:38:05 pm
Hard Truth. If you are feeling miserable , I would definitely pay off the student loans. When you have no to little debt it’s amazing how much better you feel and how much farther your salary at any job will go. If you don’t already have an emergency fund , I might consider holding back say 15- 20 K for emergencies and then you could just owe 15- 20k on student loans which would be a small payment. Debt sucks the energy and drive out of a lot of dentists and as you get older debt feels even worse. Just my opinion. You were smart enough to get through dental school , you can figure this out .
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Tony
7/8/2019 09:04:18 am
Hard truth, Pay off debt because you owe it anyway and you're paying interest on it. When the stock market corrects you'll be ahead and mostly debt free. And when you're out of debt you'll feel better internally. You'll have more options.
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Danster
7/8/2019 09:17:48 am
I have a friend that works for Blue Cross. This friend told me that at the end of the day, the dental claims on the desks that had not been processed, were pushed off into the garbage can. Hence, a nice, clean desk every morning! There is EVIL in our midst.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/9/2019 07:51:14 am
I need to vent here. Just had a patient and I was inserting a crown on #14. Crown fit well as verified by and x-ray but the mesial contact was open. Hence a food trap. It rarely happens with the lab that I use but it happened today. I explained to the patient that we need to send the crown back to the lab to add to the mesial so that it is done the correct way. I always treat my patients as thought they were my family. What does this guy do? Huffing and puffing in the chair. Trying to blame someone for the error. I refused to insert it with the open contact because it sure as heck will come back to bite me at some point. It just frustrates me to no end that people don't appreciate that we are trying to do what is best for them. Just have to swallow more aggression and roll with the confrontation on a daily basis. Something has to give. The volcano will eventually explode.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/9/2019 07:52:54 am
The dental office is a toxic environment and it is slowly killing me.
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Danster
7/9/2019 08:12:56 am
Being a dentist requires the eyes of an artist and the steady hand of a brain surgeon, with no room for error. The slightest open mesial contact and you are a bad person, and they tell everyone they know.
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Danster
7/9/2019 09:13:56 am
That didn't help I bet. Wish I could.
Tony
7/9/2019 10:38:08 am
I love my patient's and I do a good job treating them. I do what's needed, I don't upsell, and I feel good about helping them. What's stressful are the rising costs of Employees who want health, 401Ks, and $2-5/hr more than what they wanted two years ago. Costs are going up but the insurance benefits are stagnant. The consultants say to add more production via fluroride, Sleep Apnea devices, ortho, implants, laser therapy, etc. but I hate upselling and I don't want to do it all. Throw in the many corporations that are clandestinely moving in, and we can't compete. I love working hard and doing a good job but my boat is slowly sinking. I'm tired of it.
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Teeth92
7/11/2019 08:57:29 am
Tony I feel the same way as you do. One of my dentist friends pointed out to me that in a solo practice as it gets older the dentist is essentially working harder to pay the staff salaries and benefits. I sold my practice after 24 years because I did not want to start doing the upselling and advertising. I had no interest in ortho or sleep apnea or crowns in a day. I work 2 days a week in public health and I enjoy it and feel much better mentally and physically.
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Areeb nehas
7/9/2019 11:02:11 am
Hi guys , I’m so thankful for each and every one of your effort to understand patients pain and give them the best of yours. I am here a predental student . I will be going into second year of university. Guys I need help I’m based in Chicago and following path of dentistry. I need all of your help. Please tell me should I go into this career. I’m passionate about dentistry but if I don’t make a return on my investment of 8 yrs of schooling. Please help me out here. I’ve been shadowing dentist for a week . I’ve understood there’s a huge difference between private practice and corporate dentist . I also understand that there’s a huge problem of debt in our dental society. So what’s yours guys opinion. Thankkkkkyouuu
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category 3
7/24/2019 05:35:54 am
Read all the miserable comments above and decide for yourself. If I could do it over again, I would never. You're welcome
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Danster
7/9/2019 12:29:51 pm
Yes Tony, its tough when a hygienist gets a pay raise and it comes straight out of your pocket. Consultants want you to do more and more and more and more. - Hamster on a wheel.
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Hi
7/9/2019 01:03:46 pm
For those of you who are thinking of alternative career .. what can you really do with the DDS degree? I think that’s what irritates me the most is a box in this degree with you .
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Tony
7/10/2019 08:03:09 am
Hi Hi,
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Hi
7/11/2019 07:35:26 am
Thanks
category 3
7/24/2019 05:38:08 am
wipe your butt with it. but in all honesty, you can sell dental supplies and maybe teach, although those opportunities are few. and you better not have any student debt in the six figures if you think the alternatives will get you out of debt. so unfortunately, most dentists, esp. new grads, are stuck in a life of misery
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Othello
7/10/2019 11:37:43 am
Hi tony, so what’s your advice to a predental. Should I jump in this career or no. I will be a sophomore in college this fall. Should I change route to medicine or what old you guys. Thanks in advnce
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Giving Up
7/10/2019 01:55:19 pm
Cut your losses now and go into something other dental . It's a cruel trap with a very strong spring. The chances of being happy are slim.
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Gator01
7/10/2019 02:12:11 pm
Othello,
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Tony
7/10/2019 12:37:32 pm
Othello,
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Danster
7/10/2019 01:14:23 pm
I don't think anyone could sum it up more accurately than Tony.
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Giving Up
7/10/2019 04:40:03 pm
I wish I had listened to my dentist when I was young. He told me not to go into dentistry. I didn't listen. Years later, I ran into him and he said, "I told you so". One reason I guess he didn't reinforce his comments back in the day was because he didn't want my parents to get upset at him for bashing the profession. Now even my parents, all of what friends I have left, and my 2nd (understanding) wife sees how horrible it is and wishes I could escape it. We have a 4 year plan on how I can escape it, but it is going to be Hell until then. I hate being a dentist to the core of my soul. It has been the biggest disappointment of a lifetime and has destroyed my ambitions, my faith in so many people , and I realize 30 years of my life can never be regained. Now I'm getting too old to do what I probably should have done.
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Tony
7/11/2019 07:32:02 am
Giving up, what's your plan? I like the idea of a short-term plan because I don't have one. I thought I was going to work until I have a heart attack (haha, but true) How old are you?
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Othello
7/11/2019 02:30:43 pm
Do you guys have any recommendations for any good career with six figures ?
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Nehas
7/11/2019 08:39:32 pm
Hi othello
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Teeth92
7/12/2019 06:33:21 am
Othello, there are several career paths that will lead you to a six figure income. What I would concentrate on is finding a career that you can imagine yourself doing for 30+ years. Many people look at only what dentists make in terms of income. They don’t consider that once you become a dentist it’s really difficult to get out of dentistry unless you are wealthy. The typical dentist stays in debt with their business for many years. Now imagine having to self fund health insurance and retirement. Also imagine no paid vacations or sick days. Add on malpractice, DEA , and state license fees. Add on CE fees. The fees never stop and you have to be at the office and produce a lot ! And don’t forget your staff will want a raise and more benefits every year. It’s 30 years of producing for other people. And don’t forget the insurance companies reimbursements go down every year and pts want cheap or free care.
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Giving Up
7/12/2019 06:43:57 am
Add to that angry, ornery, demanding patients that want all of their teeth fixed in one day with no mistakes and for 50% off of the average fee . And you can totally forget getting sympathy from family and friends. Even they fail to see the depression in your mental state. I honestly can't think of a single career more entrapping and damaging to the human soul than dentistry. If you are just in dental school, quit right now
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Teeth92
7/12/2019 06:49:51 am
Giving up is right. Pts expect your “work” to last forever . Also pts threaten to call the board over anything. Once the board gets a complaint you will be under tremendous stress to show that you did nothing “wrong” to this precious snowflake pt.
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New to dso
7/21/2019 08:11:21 am
From my experience it's not what it used to be. That used to be when I got out of school in 2001 that you could get 33% and not have to pay lab fees and that was 33% of production now I am probably making 18% a production. I'm probably doing 10 times as much work a day as I used to. And I think they probably make 30% more however I don't have the option to just do less because they'll fire me
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Giving Up
7/12/2019 07:54:13 am
Dentists need to rise up and in a coordinated fashion form a strike, just like factory workers do. Don't pay loans, don't see patients, stop buying supplies, sue the insurance companies, and have "shoplifting" laws created whereby after the strike is over, patients must pay for services upfront before service and insurance companies fined and reprimanded if the claims are not paid in full within 3 days. We need to establish that we are not just cutting hair. We are doctors performing surgery. You don't go to BestBuy and drag out a 70" inch screen without paying for it first. If we're going to lose our asses financially from this horrid profession, why not make a huge statement on the way out.
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Giving Up
7/12/2019 08:10:58 am
The #1 thing that drains me the most in this grueling profession is the arguing , bickering, and negativity from the patient. I despise hearing how much we are hated. Only 10% of dentistry is actually doing dentistry.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/12/2019 08:31:36 am
Giving up- we should have a beer. My feelings align with yours. I’ve been practicing for almost 30 years and I’m done with it all. I’ve had enough. I daydream often what I will feel when I walk out of the office for the last time. I think I may just get in my car and drive west. When the gas tank is empty I’ll fill it up again and keep doing it til I hit the sand and the Pacific Ocean. My quiet moments are spent wondering what could have been had I chosen a different career path. At the end of the day I just want to be alone. I’ve noticed changes in me and my personality over the years and they are not good. I have less friends and I’m always depressed and anxious. When I look at my self I don’t see the person I thought I would be. And I’m getting to the point where I notice the clock ticking louder and louder. It’s sad to look at your life and live in the wonder of what might have been.
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New to dso
7/21/2019 08:07:35 am
The part where you said at the end of the day you want to be alone. You have fewer friends now. Look in the mirror and you're not the person that you used to be argued that you thought you would be. I feel the same way I'm not sure I like myself and I'm definitely looking back and thinking of what could have been really I feel like this profession tribes you two need to be alone at the end of the day there's nothing left for my family
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Dentalstud
7/12/2019 09:04:37 am
Just curious because apparently there are many dentists sharing the downside of their profession that doesn't seem too apparent before I entered dental school. Everyone always said that it's ok to suffer in school if you will get a stable job with nice income. Some of the dentists I know seem to be leading a good life with good income (or is it just that the ones struggling are less known?)
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DJ
7/12/2019 09:16:37 am
I worked for 24 years as a dentist. It was always a difficult job but every job is pretty much that way. The last 6-7 years I started feeling more burnt out but keep plugging away like everyone else. Fortunately I have always been a super saver and my spouse is quite frugal. We did not live cheap but lived well below what we could have. Family and friends would say that we looked like we lived a comfortable lifestyle but we budgeted so that 35% of take home went to investing. Our practice was a typical grossing practice in a small town. Three employees but I managed it well. Investments were typical index mutual stocks and bonds plus my office building. Do not get fancy. It will take anyone 25 years to reach financial independence if they do this. School loans need to get wiped out first and then invest like this. Read good books like the millionaire next door. I was like most of you but gave it a shot and it really does work. It takes tremendous discipline but any of you should be able to do it. Comparable dentists my age that lived high on the hog need to work until 65 and I was done at 50. Really nice to have the freedom to leave the profession and continue your families’ lifestyle if you want or continue working. Get serious and save and invest 35%.
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dolph9
7/12/2019 11:59:32 pm
I have no issue if you've done well, but you are right at the age, right at the borderline, where you don't understand what's going on.
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DJ
7/13/2019 08:55:59 am
I absolutely do see what is going on. If I worked what is considered a full career in dentistry I would have another 15 years to go. I got out because I could due to hardass planning for my future when I was 27 years old and had the discipline to stick with it. No silver spoons and no family inheritance. Don’t think for 1 second that I am out of touch with our crises. I am trying to provide an honest solution to the problem. You cannot quit until you have the means to walk away. Until that time you can either suck it up and do as I did or bury your head in the sand and continue along the present route. Do you max out retirement plans, backdoor Roths , and put away even more into taxable accounts before you buy that new car. I did year after year. The day I retired I drove away in the oldest car on the lot( there are 4 separate practices in the building so roughly 20 cars). I could have easily bought multiple toys but not my style. The younger dentists drove way nicer cars than me but they don’t now.
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category 3
8/2/2019 05:40:45 pm
While I admire your financial responsibility and frugality, students coming out now owe upwards of $300k. Unless you live in your parent's basement and eat Ramen noodles, that debt is very difficult to pay off in ten years, with interest that's usury (6-7%). When you graduated, what did you owe, like $15-$20k? And insurance re imbursements and patient wages have remained stagnant for more than 30 years. Dentistry is a terrible proposition as an investment, not even counting the opportunity cost of 8+ years college/dental school Also, add to that equipment that is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, commercial rents, etc. and you'll be lucky to retire at 75. Just my .02
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Ruined
7/13/2019 09:32:42 am
Hey Giving Up and DFB - what bar will you be meeting at for that beer? Our story is the same as yours. Only instead of bringing the plane in for a smooth landing, he hit the eject button and let it crash, leaving me to pick up the pieces. He's now applying to work in a correctional facility and I'm receptioning for $16/hr. It's hard to watch our friends who never went to college and are now retired enjoying their second home at the beach.........
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Giving Up
7/13/2019 04:36:24 pm
Ruined, I'm still laughing at your comment and analogy.
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Danster
7/15/2019 01:20:19 pm
Graduated 27 years ago, bought a practice with 6 employees, joined insurance plans, married as a form of relief (wrong person and she spent money like a drunk sailor), had some kids, work, work, work, divorced, wife never helped money wise, had to pay her a fortune, paying for 3 to go to college, and have a small retirement fund and drive an old car.
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Teeth92
7/15/2019 02:51:18 pm
I never would have made it with PPOs. I’m not that fast and I don’t want to work all the time. That’s why it’s going to be so tough on the younger dentists . Insurance controls most markets now. I practiced in an affluent area for 24 years. No ppos , some indemnity insurance ( does that even exist anymore) and mostly cash from people that expected to pay for dental care like you pay for a good lawyer. Also my pts wanted a relationship with one dentist and the staff. Now in dentistry, it’s all about low fees and being open at night or Saturdays.I would be broke . Glad I am in public health now. The patients are happy- they pay nothing. Not that I agree with free dentistry but after 24 years of private practice and ownership I was worn out. Sadly, it feels to me that lots of people want free dentistry but they pay for tattoos , nails and hair care.
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Giving Up
7/15/2019 01:48:46 pm
75% of dentists will file bankruptcy.
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Danster
7/15/2019 02:18:29 pm
If there is ever a beer drinking gathering, can I come along?
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Tony
7/15/2019 04:22:55 pm
I've been practicing for 18 years but I started dental school at 32. I owned a practiced for 10 years, then sold it because I was burnt out. Worked as an associate but didn't like it. Bought another practice 5 years ago and I'm burnt out again.
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over done
7/16/2019 01:01:25 pm
I have loved reading all these comments. I too am burnt out after 12 yrs of this shit job. I have owned for 9 yrs and it feels like 99 yrs. I literally feel like I am checking into prison each day I walk into the office to do my time. I dream about the day that I can sell this place and do something different. I have even considered going back to school to be a pathology tech. At least the patients are dead and can't talk back. I would rather get a colonoscopy ever day with no anesthetic or sedation that go do dentistry. I really feel like this job is going to give me a heart attack , stroke or liver failure from all the vodka I drink to make me forget about my day when I get home. The only thing that keeps me plugging along, is that I don't want my family to have to make financial saccrifices if my income is cut in half, because daddy can't be a dentist anymore. We don't live extravagantly by any means, but I would feel like I would be letting my family down. Luckily I have a good life insurance policy because I am sure If I stay in the game much longer, they will have to be using it. Dang, this felt good to get this off my chest. It's forums like these that make me feel like maybe I am not that crazy.
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Tony
7/17/2019 08:00:13 am
Over done. Glad you got it off your chest. It definitely feels better, doesn't it? I've been going to a therapist about once a month; an older guy that I can just talk to about my shit. He helps me see that it's okay to feel those things, it's normal. I'm not defective or a loser.
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Tony
7/18/2019 08:05:34 am
Is there another forum?
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New to dso
7/21/2019 07:55:38 am
I feel exactly the same way. I work so hard it is going to kill me yet everyone e hates me or at the very least think I am so lucky and they work harder than me. My hygienist thi is I should help her more and" have her back" even though I will even perio chart for her while I run 4 chairs plus 1 hygiene. She but dialed me and I overheard her talking about these things. I don't even own the practice but I buy them all scrubs...got the assistants tire fixed for her because she can spend 10 to 20 $ a day on lunch but cant borrow enough to get her tire fixed...buy 100 presents for one having baby but I think They all just think I'm so rich that it's not truly sppreciated....meanwhile I run around like a chicken with my head cut off to get it all done and I am apparently not helping the hygienist enough. It's going to kill me
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over done
7/17/2019 05:09:08 pm
Tony, Thanks for the comment. I've tried talking to a therspist a few times with no luck. maybe it wasnt the right one. I've tried consultants, new technology and getting trained on different dental treatments to try to find some joy in this hell hole of a profession. all i got out of all of them were disapointment and a smaller checking account. Everyone on this forum should have a get together just to drink together and talk shit about patients and dentistry.
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Giving Up
7/19/2019 08:52:38 am
There are other forums but they have honest opinions of the hellish reality of dentistry. I wish there was an easier way to post on this forum.
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Hi
7/19/2019 10:48:21 am
Which other forums?
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Dr. C
7/22/2019 06:49:40 am
I found this blog about a year ago, sometime in 2018. At that time there was about 140 comments, and the doctor that started it started it in 2014. There was 140 comments in 4 years. Now there is almost 500, the majority in the last year. That tells me that things are getting worse, not better. I wouldn't say that I'm glad I'm not alone in how I feel, but I am relieved. It's nice to not feel like the odd man out.
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Dr A
7/23/2019 08:46:30 am
I second that. This site is becoming my to go little oasis whenever I feel down. It really helps knowing that I am not alone in this elusive depressing career
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Dead on the Inside
7/22/2019 12:45:54 pm
After 17 years in dentistry (bought 2 practices, started one, sold one, closed 2) and having to buy another since my last acquisition hasn't been what is was advertised (far fewer patients and income), I am sick. Sick of the government, the board, ungrateful patients, assuming staff, relentless vendors, and the constant pressure of having to produce more and more just to pay bills. What a miserable treadmill!! If I had a way out, I would gladly go today.
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Tony
7/23/2019 10:04:49 am
Dead on the inside, Yes, your story sound familiar. I'm thinking about selling to a local corporation and working for them. On one hand, I can get rid of the gorilla on my back (debt) yet have a new one (a corporation overlord). Have you ever done this?
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Dead on the Inside
8/15/2019 07:45:35 am
I did sell my large practice. Now I have a small one that I am selling next week. Can't decide if I want to associate for a while or go back to a big office. This profession is nuts. I would like to just have a business or two in another industry and quit throwing my body and mind under the bus every day.
Ruined
7/23/2019 03:54:56 am
It can't be a coincidence that perfectionism and anxiety, and the resultant depression of the dentist is a recurring theme here. I wonder if what it takes to be a good dentist is what brings them to this horrible state of being.
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Teeth92
7/23/2019 04:02:31 am
And the perfection and anxiety are present while you are trying to help people. A dentist gets little satisfaction from caring for our pts because most of them don’t want to be there and/ they are complaining about fees. And in my case , the staff iwas always wanting more money or more vacation. It’s a hamster wheel with lots of debt that gets really old fast.
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Giving Up
7/23/2019 09:20:09 am
Dentures should be an abolished option for teeth replacement, or there should be a do-it-yourself home kit offered by an "as-seen-on-TV" kit.
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Danster
7/23/2019 11:32:26 am
Getting someone comfortable with dentures is like asking someone to run with wooden shoes. And the mental state of the patient is more critical than the skills of the clinician.
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Teeth92
7/23/2019 11:49:50 am
With patients high expectations nowadays , dentures shouldn’t even be a treatment option. Dentures suck.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/23/2019 12:27:01 pm
My dentures hurt my gums. My dentures are loose. My dentures are too big. I get food caught under my dentures. I can’t speak right with my dentures. I can’t taste my food with my dentures. I can’t eat corn or an apple with my dentures. My teeth are too big in my dentures. My dentures don’t look natural. My dentures smell. My dog chewed up my dentures. I need new dentures.
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Teeth92
7/23/2019 12:32:31 pm
DFB spot on. Heard them all..... and one of my favorites I brought my last set of dentures that another dentist made and they don’t look like these that you made.
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Dr. C
7/23/2019 12:40:23 pm
Dentures are a huge pain, but cosmetic dentistry is worse. The patients don't realize the art and science behind dental aesthetics. They complain like crazy over stupid things that won't work if you do it their way. They think they're getting a dye job at the beauty salon.
Drill Fill and Bill
7/23/2019 01:07:20 pm
Teeth 92- how fun is it making dentures for someone who has had the same set for 30 years? It’s a losing proposition from the first set of alginates.
Teeth92
7/23/2019 01:45:36 pm
Exactly DFB. Refer to prosthodontist.
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Danster
7/23/2019 01:50:42 pm
You know what would make me bone up on my denture skills?
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/23/2019 01:51:35 pm
Referring is like a punt when you’re 4th down and long from your own goal line. Can’t kick it far enough
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Danster
7/23/2019 01:59:22 pm
One observation: Humor. Some of you people really make me smile. And that is very valuable. Thanks
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Over Done
7/23/2019 02:07:31 pm
Folks this job is eating at me so much, that I am about to sell the practice and change careers. I seriously considering going back to school to be a pathology assisstant. At least then, my patients will be dead. I always loved pathology in dental school and I love forensics. Do you think it is a selfish thing for me to uproot my family to go back to school for 2yrs? It is weighing heavily on me here lately. I get nausious thinking about being a dentist for 20 to t5 more years.
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Tony
7/23/2019 03:03:02 pm
OverDone, Don't make major life decisions when you're depressed or in a funk. Wait. I find that sometimes I'm in exactly your spot but then it defuses a lot. Are you talking about Oral Pathology? That seems like a good choice since you're already a dentist.
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Over done
7/24/2019 06:05:48 am
So I have just paid my office off and I have about 60K in student dept to pay off . I own the building i am in and owe about 135k on it. I am hoping with the sale of the practice that I could walk away with at least 350k after all debts are serviced and lawyers and taxes paid. Maybe I could take a 6 month sabatical and reevaluate my life and career. Pathology assistants start out making 80k on average. my wife is a pharmacist, so I am lucky and blessed I am not the only one bringing in money. I keep telling myself that i am crazy for thinking this, but I am also going to go crazy if I continue being a dentist for 20 or more years.
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Teeth92
7/24/2019 06:13:34 am
Over done, your wife is a professional earning six figures - you are in good shape to sell your practice and then use your sabbatical to clear your mind and move forward. Stress from dentistry will kill you. Your family needs you around. Sell and move on to a healthier life.
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Dentist who's done
7/24/2019 04:16:06 pm
Soooooo relieved to see this post and comments. I'm a dentist in South Africa and I'm done. Going to quit tomorrow after doing this crap day in and day out for the past 5 years. I'm tired of the sleepless nights, the neck and back aches, the ungrateful patients, the asshole patients.. I'm done. Good luck to any sorry soul that chooses this horrendous career...
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/25/2019 06:46:24 am
Dentist Who's Done- I envy people who can just walk away from this sadistic profession. Cheers to you. How old are u? What are your plans for income after u quit? Literally not a day goes by where I don’t dream about what my life would be like if I didn’t have to practice dentistry anymore. I have recognized my shortcomings by just going thru the motions these past few years. Like a runner in the last few miles of a marathon. I’ve stopped the hard selling of dentistry to my patients. I only do enough to get by and to pay the bills because I just don’t care anymore. The care I give to my patients is still high quality...that wont ever change. I’ve just lost the desire to do the larger cases because there is just too much aggravation and a high probability that I won’t be able to meet the patients expectations. Sometimes the money we collect from these cases is just not worth the aggravation that comes along with it. I hope you are able to live your life without the daily anxiety and depression that we all feel. Good luck to you.
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Tony
7/25/2019 08:00:42 am
I walked away once and it was great. I sold my practice and had both time and money. I was happy. However, I needed income and started at a corporation. Got fired because I didn't produce enough. What do you expect with $32 dollar cleanings and exams? I'm not magically going to create something from nothing. The dentist that replaced me did RCT's on every crown and that worked for the company. I'm sure she's gone now too. I want to walk away again too. I like my patients. I like dentistry. I hate the financial pressure of selling, running a business, and employees that want more and more. Taxes suck too. I'm one week away from our annual vacation so I'm especially low. I'm hoping to recharge and create a plan. Exit plan or ongoing plan, I don't know.
Teeth92
7/25/2019 09:05:58 am
It takes forever to walk away in the US because of all the debt. I sold after 24 years but I still work 1 or 2 days a week. Dentistry is like getting stuck in a Venus Flytrap. It’s a miserable slow death. But not owning has given me my life back and I am much happier. I don’t see ownership getting any easier with all the corporate offices and the new dental schools churning out lots of new heavily indebted dentists.
GottaGetOut
7/25/2019 12:38:43 pm
Hi all, has anybody figured out how to recareer? I have been doing this for 10 years and I can't take it anymore. I certainly can't do it another 40 years. I still have about $220K in debt. I'm too young to quit and do nothing, not that it's financially feasible anyway. Is it worth going back to school for another degree? I have read so many college catalogs and I honestly don't even know what to pick. A masters degree runs around 40-50K at most schools and I don't believe I can take more student loans out at this point. I was just wondering if any of you know of any dentists that have successfully been hired as something else - something not in the dental field at all. I have tried applying for other types of jobs for the last year and a half with no luck at all. I'm getting desperate to find something else. I am plagued with this issue of how much I hate dentistry every day as well...I know you all understand.
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Mary Smith
7/30/2019 11:56:57 am
I've been an associate for 20 years mostly Corp. Which Corp is the best? I don't want to own my own practice.
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New to dso
7/30/2019 01:23:23 pm
Where are you looking to work? I have also been an associate I like the company I'm currently with.
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Mary Smith
7/30/2019 01:29:02 pm
Houston, not necessary looking now, just wanted to see which corps y'all liked best. I've got 20 years left in this gig. I hope I can still get a reply, do you guys think it would be a bit easier if you weren’t in debt, I want to be a Dentist but I plan on joining the air force as a dentist, after I graduate so they can take care of all the debt 100% . Would it still be worth it . I feel so bad reading some of the comments about how some of you guys feel makes me apperiacte my Dentist much more because he really tries his best . I always thought wow he’s so old why is he still working now I realize maybe because he is still in debt . And thank you to each and everyone of you .
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Mary Smith
7/30/2019 01:32:14 pm
I had couple friends that joined the military. All dentists. Saw the world together before having kids. One I know settled on a practice, wife quit dentistry and raised the kids. They are very happy but they live in a low cost of living area and it's her hometown. Other couple I lost track of, but they stayed in the military.
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Tony
7/31/2019 07:50:08 am
P, would it be easier if you weren't in debt? Yes, absolutely. Debt is part of dentistry though. First is student loans. If you decide to buy a practice then there's more. Once you own a practice, it continues forever... upgrades to a Cerec, CBCT, lasers, etc. etc.
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BD
7/31/2019 09:07:35 am
Unfortunately, debt is the main problem. There is no way around school debt or the debt paid for the practice. Really scrutinize return on investment on any new equipment purchases as every dollar spent there is one less dollar to invest. Most dentists will never get rich from dentistry but from investing a good chunk of income each and every year. If you take care of the business then you will likely get a return on your money when you eventually sell. It takes time but the sale price is largely based on the patient pool and not all the latest toys. I am not saying to not upgrade but do so for for your financial benefit and the interests of your patients and not for the retailers who tell you how much more production you’ll get with the purchase of their toys.
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Teeth92
8/1/2019 06:17:53 am
BD is spot on about the debt. I have known many dentists who made a lot of money in dentistry but still had way too much debt at 50. Try to minimize debt as you become an older dentist. You don’t want to be 55 and carrying debt on the practice or a large house payment. Too many dentists burn out. Dentistry gets more physically difficult into your 50s. The days of being a rich dentist are gone for most dentists.
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James Lee
8/2/2019 02:59:59 pm
I've recently graduated last spring with a biology major and have also recently taken the DAT, scoring well. However, reading many of these comments has me concerned about the profession, but I'm not sure if there's bias in this thread too. I feel like if I apply, there will be a good chance of admission given my DAT score and GPA but I am also on the fence with going through with this because of what I've been reading about. I want to say that I would be pursuing this job for the money and job security, but I do like healthcare and the science behind it. Would going into 300k in debt be worth it if I want to be an associate dentist in the future in a city like Houston or Dallas in TX? Or should I use my bio major towards grad school/post bacc in tech which would incur significantly much less debt. What are your main stressors/regrets with being a dentist?
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Giving Up
8/2/2019 03:16:35 pm
Please James Lee, go in another direction! Dentistry is a horrible career choice. The stress, the never ending debt, employee management nightmares, the ungrateful and hateful patients that nickpick everything to pieces, the wear and tear on your family and friends, the demands, the lack of vacation time.......It's AWFUL.
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Teeth92
8/2/2019 03:32:34 pm
Giving Up is not exaggerating! Everything is true. Also imagine self funding health insurance. That health insurance premium will be equivalent to a monthly home mortgage.
Giving Up
8/2/2019 03:23:35 pm
If you do go into dentistry, go into the military, don't get married, drive a jalopy, then you can be fully retired at around 50, then you can be able to live a scott-free life.
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Teeth92
8/2/2019 03:27:57 pm
James, IMHO , 300 k is too much to become an associate dentist. My own daughter is pursuing a PhD in Ecology and it’s mostly funded by her program. If you love dentistry and you are entrepreneurial than 300k in student loans would be the maximum and understand that you are going to have to work very hard over a long time . Just know that being an owner is an additional job with its own set of stressors on top of being a dentist.
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Reality Bites
8/3/2019 05:47:30 am
James - I have been following this blog for 5 years and have never in my life posted comments online regarding anything, but I want to help you make an informed decision based on today's realities. I will give you my opinion based on 32 years in dentistry, 29 of which have been in private practice as a specialist, and several years now of being an instructor and mentor to GPR residents. I too was a biology major (in the early 80's) and I can tell you that if you do not pursue medicine or dentistry you will not find an adequate job, as even a Masters and PhD in Biology is useless except for teaching, and those jobs are few and far between. Research pays very little, so that is not a practical option either. As I'm sure you know, medicine is a horror show now and must be avoided at all costs. That leaves dentistry.
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Teeth92
8/3/2019 06:33:54 am
Excellent advice. I have been out 27 years and wholeheartedly agree with Reality Bites. Keep your practice small with very few employees is key. As well as marry well. Ideally marry another professional who is also frugal.
James Lee
8/3/2019 09:20:05 am
Thank you for your advice! I had a couple of follow up questions regarding this. I would love to speak with you privately, but I do not think there is a way to privately message others on this forum to do so. 5/6/2021 02:22:46 pm
Hello Doctor, your post was amazing and it has truly shed some light into the reality of Dentistry. My name is Jacob and I'm on a very similar boat as James. However, I was already accepted into 3 dental schools and I differed because of the whole Covid-19 Pandemic and I'm seriously re-considering dentistry, I'm currently working at a Dental Clinic here in San Francisco California and I would love to discuss this with you. Thank you so much for your insight and if you could please email me at [email protected] I'd love to talk to you more about this! Thank you and I look forward to speaking with you soon!
Drill Fill and Bill
8/2/2019 04:17:02 pm
James Lee...what did u have to type into the search bar to find this blog? DENTISTRY SUCKS. Perhaps it was a sign from a higher authority that u found this blog. The people who post here have seen and experienced it all. I’ve been a dentist for almost 30 years and I agree with all the negativity that is posted here. Listen to what teeth 92 and giving up recently posted and take it to heart. Their statements are honest and genuine. If I cold talk to the 26 year old version me I would say to go into teaching dentistry or go into the military. Both would offer all the benefits you would need that you could never give yourself in your own practice. Your at a crossroads...I hope you make the right decision for yourself and I sincerely wish you the best.
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ruined
8/3/2019 08:44:16 am
Reality Bites sums it up very well. Although, depending on one's personality, perhaps a "mid-level" provider would allow one to be "in" the health care industry without some of the headaches. For example, nurse, nurse practitioner, hygienist, physical therapist, etc. I also wonder if pharmacy might be a good option.
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Teeth92
8/3/2019 09:06:27 am
Anecdotally, nurse practitioners and physician assistants seem to be very happy. I also know some CRNAs who are very happy. Medical school or dental school is a tough route to take nowadays considering the time and expenses vs the income and job satisfaction. Lots of medical and dental blogs focus on getting financially independent as soon as possible so people can leave medicine or dentistry or go part time.
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Dr. C
8/3/2019 11:51:12 am
Most internet servers allow their customers to have up to 5 different email addresses. Or create a new gmail accountIf someone wants to message someone off this forum just create a new email address that does not give away your name or compromise their anonymity. Use your name on this forum as part of your email address. Then share it with the member that asked for it.
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Dr. C
8/3/2019 12:51:23 pm
Edit: What I was saying was to create a gmail account or a new email account without giving away your name and then share it with the group if you want to email off this forum. I should have proofread before I hit submit.
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Reality Bites
8/3/2019 12:19:18 pm
James, those are excellent questions. I surmised from your name that you are Asian which will help you a great deal when applying for military scholarships, which are difficult to get now. Minority status is definitely a big plus.
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Rosin Bag
8/3/2019 06:10:12 pm
James Lee and anyone else observing from the sidelines:
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Rosin Bag
8/3/2019 07:03:13 pm
Here's the rest Hahah:
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Reality Bites
8/4/2019 02:43:29 am
I think Rosin Bag and I are kindred spirits! It's always good to know that there are other people in this world with their spirituality and humanity intact.
CRNA OR DENTISTRY
8/8/2019 02:01:02 pm
Hi guys, After studying all your comments. I've come to a conclusion I'm still confused. hahaha, I kindly am requesting if anyone can help me with their information. So basically I will be going into my second year of college. I'll take on substantial science prereqs as required. I've been shadowing dentists lately this summer and had to build up my own sort of idea that dentistry is heading downwards in terms of prosperity. I've been reading that corporate dentistry is taking over and private ownership has gone down mainly because of a number of insurance issues as well as Medicaid. Now I live in Chicago suburbs, I've seen the forecast here. It's very saturated in terms of numbers of dental graduates every year. So by the time I come into play in 2027, it'll be worse considering all these issues of insurance, debt, and economy. Don't get me wrong I didn't pick dentistry because of money but that's where I found my passion was and the way of life a lot of dentists drew a picture of lavishness and respect in the profession just like Picasso would do, I was inspired. But now that I see all these struggles that I'm gonna have to work so hard even after graduating from dental school it just doesn't fuel me to glance forward in this career. This is me being 100% genuine with you guys on the forum. I was considering nurse anesthetist, that's a good career. But again just confused, would love some guidance. Thank you, everyone.
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Drill Fill and Bill
8/8/2019 02:48:44 pm
CRNA—read the comments from Reality Bites over and over again until is sinks into your brain. Re-read the figures he calculated and understand the amount of debt you would be going into if u decide to go to dental school. It’s a minimum of $650,000. Unless u come from a very wealthy family where your parents are paying for dental school it is just a very bad investment to put yourself in such debt. Having to pay about $2300 a month for 20 years is ludicrous, reckless and careless. In order to afford that payment a month would u be willing to put off buying a house? Getting married and raising children? The salary you would need to afford all those things that those responsibilities will bring just won’t be there for you. My advice to you if u really want dentistry as your career would be to go into the military after graduation. The government will absorb most of your debt for 6-8 years of your life. If I could talk to the 26 year old version of me, I would convince him to join the military. Never forget that the greatest agony of the soul is to live in the wonder of what might have been. Good luck to you.
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Reality Bites
8/8/2019 05:09:30 pm
CRNA - I want you to read this carefully, as well as what I posted before, and LISTEN to DFB and everyone else on this site . You absolutey cannot go into this field for the money, unless you are a sociopathic scam artist or very lucky. It is just not there anymore. Your observation is correct - the field is on an inexorable downward trajectory, otherwise known as a "race to the bottom". It is not coming back. Practitioners at my career stage are OK, unless they foolishly wasted their money on expensive homes, divorces, BMWs, divorces, toys, divorces, etc. Those starting out, for the most part, are in for a major, unpleasant (to say the least) reality check.
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Giving Up
8/8/2019 05:16:50 pm
Best post of the blog. Amazingly accurate. STAY AWAY FROM DENTAL SCHOOL!!!!! Reality Bites is exactly right. I don't even think I'm going to post anymore. If you don't listen to our warnings, I pity you.
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CRNA OR DENTISTRY
8/8/2019 06:17:38 pm
Wowww. Reality bites and drill , fill thank you so much for this amazing advice. Yes I will consider you guys and most probably change my decision to opt out from pre dental. Man it’s sad honestly how much passion I had once for something in life. I had dreams to go to dental school. But it’s all good. I’m not going to ask any career recommendations, mainly bcz I’m gonna research and find something that falls under my passion. But if you guys have any recommendations. I’m happy to listen :) .
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Jack Daniels
8/9/2019 07:00:15 pm
I was shadowing this dentist who runs his own private practice and I showed him all the comments from this blog and basically discussed how everything is changing is dentistry. But he just denied with all the comments. He said as long as you learn or do fellowship in orthodontist or learn cosmetic dentistry. That’s where the money the lies. Now I’m confused when dentists are saying they make money and only the newly graduates suffer. Then there’s the opposite side which is very much reflected in this blog. So what’s your guys opinion should I listen to my dentist. He’s been only practicing for 8 years and been very successful
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Reality Bites
8/10/2019 04:18:05 am
Jack - I have some time before I begin my schedule this morning, so I want to respond to you. I am a caring person who really wants to help people, whether they be patients or individuals seeking advice about anything - I try to help. However, when it comes to making business and life-altering decisions, I conduct an unemotional analysis based on the pros and, particularly, the cons of my intended actions. Sort of like a "Vulcan" approach (for you youngsters - Spock from Star Trek). I say "cons", in particular, as we must assume the worst case scenario in order to make a logical, reasoned decision. This is not pessimism - it is reality-based thinking. It applies to all life and career decisions.
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Ruined
8/10/2019 05:24:40 am
Yes to the plumber recommendation! We had a plumber come to the office. He was there 30 minutes and charged $270. Meanwhile, the dentist or hygienist (who makes $40/hr) gets paid $48 from Delta Dental for 45 minutes of work. Do the math.
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Teeth92
8/10/2019 06:36:24 am
Also in dentistry today, what are the chances you are going to own your business ? You most likely will be working in corporate 5 eight hour days a week which doesn’t sound difficult but in the past many dentists worked 4 eight hour days because dentistry is physically and mentally tough. A corporate office manager will be telling you how to do your job. Owning your business as a tradesman is better. Most dentists are employees. It doesn’t matter that you have the title of Doctor.
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EP
8/10/2019 11:12:36 am
I echo what Reality Bites talks about. This is sound advice.Whenever you make a big decision weigh the pros versus cons but put more emphasis on worst case scenario. He is not being pessimistic, but just trying to be honest. If you get in over your head your life will suck. Dentistry is a great career if you are financially stable and enjoy the work. It will not matter how much you enjoy the actual work if you can’t pay the bills which includes your retirement accounts. There will come a day when you will want to slow down and if you have to stay on the hamster wheel you will be wishing that you were a plumber. Unfortunately, a career choice to be a dentist involves so much financial consideration but it does.Personal finances were always in the picture but not anything like they are today. The debt required to take on is too much for most to handle. Something needs to change or there will be an extreme shortage and maybe that is what it will take to turn this thing back around. It is not like the demand for dental care will cease to exist. Fewer students equals fewer schools and lower tuition to attract those students. Fewer dentists taking PPO payments will result in more competitive reimbursement. It will happen but it will likely take a decade or more of lower dental school class sizes to shock the system back into reality. My recommendation is to forget a career as a dentist unless you have the financial means. Otherwise you are taking a big gamble with the rest of your life.
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Reality Bites
8/11/2019 05:43:02 am
I contacted a local university and volunteered to meet with their Pre-Healthcare Club to help give them guidance. Will set something up after the fall semester begins. I enjoy being a mentor and recently had a former student/resident secure a really good associate position with a respectable practice. Was very tough to find, but perserverance, and some luck, paid off.
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James Lee
8/11/2019 07:50:25 pm
I appreciate the sound advice and perspective from everybody. Let's say I do want to be an owner in the future. Assuming my debt would still be 300k for dental school, does that scenario make owning worth it? What extra stressors do you really notice in owning vs. being an associate for somebody? Do the benefits outweigh the stressors of being an associate, or is owning not for everybody? I know my bedside manner isn't the greatest due to my introverted nature, but I assume that would more strongly affect me if I were to be an owner.
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Dr. C
8/12/2019 07:47:45 am
$300,000 is very steep debt, especially if you want to buy a practice for another $500,000. However, since you asked about owning, I will tell you that in addition to all the bills (lab, materials, rent, utilities, student loan payments, practice payments, funding your own health care premiums, your own retirement, not to mention your personal bills, such as mortgage, etc.) your employees will drive you nuts. Expect at least twice a month someone to call in sick. This after your patients sometimes schedule 6 months in advance for a cleaning, and several weeks out for operative work. The patients plan in advance because they have to take time off from work, etc., but your staff will throw a monkey wrench in the works by calling in sick. You are held hostage to your workers, in more ways than one. They want a raise frequently, more and more benefits, paid time off, sick pay (so they can screw up your schedule), 401 K, different instruments, the newest technology, the list goes on. There are many stresses with being a dentist, but employees are the biggest stress.
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Reality Bites
8/12/2019 06:38:14 am
Unfortunately, I think Giving Up is right. It seems like no pre-dents are reading our posts or they are going in one eye and out the other. I, and others, have already expounded, ad nauseum, on everything you need to know. Please go back and read them.
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EP
8/12/2019 07:49:26 am
Pre-dents have been warned on this site and they can read all the other stats out there. You can only teach your kids to not touch a hot stove. If they ignore the advice because it doesn’t apply to them it’s too bad but they are the only ones who get burned. It is crazy that individuals who are intelligent enough to enroll in professional school can be so stupid at decision making. Maybe the DAT should include a section on common sense.
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Giving Up
8/12/2019 03:14:36 pm
No one knows true happiness until they become a dentist. Then it's too damn late!
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Tony
8/13/2019 07:08:57 am
I vacationed with a bunch of dentists over the weekend that are primarily my good friends and we had a discussion about, "What we would do differently" about our careers. Three of us said we should have gone into the military. The benefits being: paid student loans, education, benefits, and retirement after 20 years, which would be about now. At this point we could associate, do public health, etc, but we wouldn't be in this financial bind that we find ourselves now. The fourth dentist is wildly successful and I can't remember what he said because I was too drunk. (smile)
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Danster
8/14/2019 12:54:48 pm
A vision might be: I love helping others. I love healthcare. I love science. I love problem solving. I love solutions. I love art. So, I know I will love dentistry.
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Tony
8/14/2019 02:22:29 pm
Exactly!
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Danster
8/14/2019 01:05:18 pm
Oh! I forgot one expense. You have to pay yourself. So add that to the hourly costs.
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Giving Up
8/14/2019 02:34:45 pm
The doctor's pay is considered miscellaneous. :)
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Reality Bites
8/14/2019 05:05:50 pm
Someone on SDN posted that USC Dental will be an estimated $147,000/year tuition/living for the Class of 2023. NYU, Penn, etc. are close behind. Figure about a 5% increase/year. So $600k+ for the Class of 2023. Mathematically on target to hit the $1,000,000 mark for the Class of 2033.
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Beaten to a Pulp
8/15/2019 03:47:40 am
So true so true...
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Drill Fill and Bill
8/19/2019 10:42:18 am
Just wondering if anyone has ever had the slightest, i mean the slightest sense of relief when one of your patients passes away who gave you nothing but aggravation over the years. Maybe just a little???
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Giving Up
8/19/2019 10:47:57 am
The entire staff and I sometimes pop open a bottle of our best champagne on occasion, and I even let them stay on the clock. There's a cork screw in the kitchen drawer for good reasons.
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Teeth92
8/19/2019 11:10:46 am
The obits are the first section of our small town newspaper that I check weekly and yes sometimes I felt huge relief. Because many times these older pts just enjoyed giving everyone at the office a difficult time and there wasn’t any way we could make them happy.
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Drill Fill and Bill
8/19/2019 10:58:01 am
Now there is an honest answer. Thanks Giving up for validating what I feel. I’ll have a beer for u tonight as I mourn the passing of one of my long time patients who was long overdue for a dirt nap.
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ruined
8/19/2019 11:13:20 am
Too funny. Really wish we could have a party together one day.
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Danster
8/20/2019 12:03:18 pm
A dirt nap! Ha! I had a lady come up to me in Wal Marks, and say " do you remember me". ( I can't stand that). I lied and said yes. She said " do you remember making my moms dentures"? I lied and said yes.
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Drill Fill and Bill
8/20/2019 12:46:45 pm
Danster-I thought I heard every dental story out there but yours is truly original. It’s priceless. And I know you can work your magic and somehow make those dentures fit her daughter. And why do these crazy things always happen in a Walmart? As much as I hate this profession...I think I would trade it all in to run a dental clinic in a Walmart! Imagine the people we’d see and the stories we could tell there? Maybe put up some webcams and start a reality TV show there. Now there’s a show people would watch. A dental clinic inside a Walmart. Whose in??
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Danster
8/20/2019 02:42:20 pm
That’s a great idea! Count me in!
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Tony
8/21/2019 09:37:39 am
I like it too!
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Drop Out
8/21/2019 10:47:09 am
Well, I dropped out of dental school in my third year due to everything. However, everyone else in my class graduated. They seemed to enjoy all the stress and other things that I couldn't stand. Being in dental school made me feel dumb and extremely stupid. I was always wondering "why am I the only one who hates this?" and "how come no-one else sees the unsustainability of this?" I concluded I somehow just picked the absolute worst profession for me personally and no-one else in my class did.
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Drop Out
8/21/2019 10:54:22 am
Edit: I came across this blog randomly. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who didn't like the profession... But, on the other hand I'm annoyed by some of you people. You were talented, resilient, and smart enough to finish the absolute HELL that was dental school and hear you are whining and complaining incessantly about the very profession you were lucky enough to achieve. You're talking about quitting, you're talking about your patients, you're talking about how the money isn't good enough. Wow... I mean, I can understand a bit. However, you have a professional career, you're incredibly smart, and you're actually helping people a lot whether they appreciate it or not. And yet, you're still miserable. How do you think I feel?! I have NOTHING to show for that. Dental school was the worst time of my life and ruined my future. You complainers at least have an income and job that you're uniquely qualified to perform. If you really don't like it that much then... quit. I'm sorry but you people just remind me of movie stars and celebrities that cry "oh my good the paparazzi are ruining my life waahh my life is totally like SO hard right now."
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Reality Bites
8/21/2019 11:37:07 am
It's unfortunate that people will lash out at others and not take resposibility for their own failures. Every dentist has suffered through dental school but perservered, despite the same depression and anxiety you experienced. Before deciding on dental school, I quit an extremely prestigious college studying in an unrelated field when I realized it was not right for me. I did a 180, went to a different college, changed my major, finished a year early, then graduated dental school at 25. Dental school was an unpleasant experience, for the most part, and my specialty program was truly a nightmare.
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Drill Fill and Bill
8/21/2019 11:21:20 am
Drop Out- I can understand your frustration and bitterness from leaving dental school. Please don’t look back at your decision to leave dental school as quitting, or as a failing. It took a lot of guts and honesty to do what you did. And I applaud you for that. Being true to yourself and your feelings is not easy to do..and u did it. Most of the people who post here have been practicing for a long time. 30 years for me. I would gladly take a less paying job if it will bring happiness back into my life. I’m in too deep now...the whole house and family thing is a huge responsibility. And it weighs you down. If you stayed in dental school you would be miserable for the rest of your life. And you’d probably find yourself posting on this blog all the things other people post. If I could talk to the 22 year old me I would tell him to do exactly what you did. And people are phony. Driving expense cars and wearing expensive watches and living in big houses. The people who flaunt are usually the weakest ones out there. You made the right decision and you have your whole life ahead of you to find a career that will make you happy. Your glass is half full. Good luck buddy
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Tony
8/21/2019 01:04:19 pm
Reality Bites,
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Giving Up
8/21/2019 11:31:07 am
We just spared you a divorce, $1.5M of debt, heartache, your future sanity, friendships with future friends, constant hateful comments from people you're trying to help, and impossible to meet demands. Like Jack Nicholson said in A Few Good Men, all we wanted to hear is "Thank You".
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Teeth92
8/23/2019 07:14:18 am
Giving up’s comments are priceless. Until I sold my practice , I never realized how my relationships with family and friends suffered. Patients expect you to be available 24/7. Pts will threaten to call the board or write terrible reviews on every website they can find. I worked in a cash setting for over 20 years . Now I work 2 shifts a week at a FHQC . Check in . Check out. I have no financial responsibility for a huge practice and paying staff or expenses.
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Mary Smith
8/21/2019 01:10:52 pm
Drop out, can you pay as little as possible monthly and then get loan forgiveness in 10 years? Is that a real thing? I've just "heard" of it. You made the right decision. I assume you are still young and done have a family yet. This profession would kill you, you are a sensitive person like me. I have had 4 board complaints and have threats of lawsuit. For nothing I did wrong. Sorry I have to go. I have an HMO patient exam. Guess what? I'm being paid $0 with mom in the room throwing darts at me. Nice huh?
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Giving Up
8/27/2019 08:42:49 am
Dentistry has made my life a living Hell.
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Drill Fill and Bill
8/27/2019 10:46:03 am
Giving up-you’re not alone. I’m having a week from hell. I don’t know how much longer I can hold on to my sanity. I have so much built up anger and frustration and anxiety inside that I feel like I will blow at any time. I wish I had an answer that could end all my misery. I just want to be happy. Not asking much is it? I deserve that much. Each day that goes by is one less day that I have to live. Going into dentistry was the worst decision I ever made.
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Tony
8/28/2019 08:00:21 am
Drill,
Giving Up
8/28/2019 11:08:04 am
Bickering, arguing, defiance, hatred, belly-aching, ranting, acting ugly, rudeness, and disrespect.....and that's before I even give a shot and begin the procedure. It wears you down.
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loyola.predent
8/29/2019 02:33:35 pm
So after a lot of consideration, I've decided to opt-out of this career. I am a sophomore in community college. I read a lot of comments here which gave me nightmares but also portrayed a genuine dark side of dentistry. I fear many would say I picked this career for money even my family members, which isn't true, I still love it and would pick dentistry if I could if the circumstances were different for the future. I live in Chicago where I've consulted and shadowed newly graduates and private practices dentists. Both are facing huge issues in saturation and don't get as many patients as they used to back in the good days. It's just bad out there, there are too many reasons to even write them out. I'm sad but I think that's what my instincts say. I'm considering CRNA, it's the same field as medicine I would still do what I like to do which is help patients but just in a different setting. Let me know what do you guys think on my decision. More than happy to receive any type of criticism or career advice.
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Reality Bites
8/30/2019 12:37:20 am
Your decision is sound and well-reasoned. You've researched it thoroughly and should have no regrets moving forward. We all look back in later years with regret about what might have been, but in your situation you can honestly tell yourself that "I made the best decision I could at the time". Besides, we all fantasize about how much better life would have been if we had chosen a different path not realizing that it could have been worse. a lot worse. It's just human nature. You have clearly done your homework, gone over the pros and cons and come to a logical conclusion. That should put your mind at ease and make you feel good. Just concentrate your time and nergy into being the best CRNA possible. You may also end up meeting the love of your life going down this road whom you would not have met if you chose dentistry!
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Giving Up
8/29/2019 03:04:29 pm
You made an extremely wise decision. It pleases my soul to know that we experienced, beaten down, and battered dentists have played a role in helping you make one of the top 5 major decisions in your life. Even though you will never actually see what we spared you from, enjoy what we already know for you will be a much , much better life than where you were originally headed. Regardless of whether you are religious or not, saving you from going into dentistry reminds me of the story of the rich man in Hell wanting to be able to have the opportunity to warn his brothers of Hell and how horrible it is.
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loyola.predent
8/30/2019 01:16:50 am
Giving Up and Reality Bites. I really appreciate your positive feedback. The only problem I see here is approaching my parents who planned out and look forward to see me wearing white coat. It's just it was their dream. Little do they know I've changed paths and are just on the same page. It should be easy but I don't know how many days of explanation it will take to ease them down.
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Giving Up
8/30/2019 01:36:31 am
Show your friends and family this thread/forum..
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Reality Bites
8/30/2019 10:01:52 am
It's not their dream, it's your dream. I see this all too often - parents living vicariously through their children. Basically, they're pressuring you to do something to give them a greater sense of self-esteem/pride which they are lacking, for whatever reason. They probably envision a life of riches and success that they do not have or, if they did achieve it, that they are expecting you to achieve. It's very selfish.
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Giving Up
8/30/2019 10:39:11 am
Reality Bites said it perfectly.
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Beaten to a Pulp
9/3/2019 07:27:03 am
I can't take it anymore. I come back from a short 3 day vacation, and everything from complaining patients to complaining staff and the constant worry of taking care of my family has pushed me to the limit! My first day back, staff asking for more money, patients complaining it costs to much and threatening me that they are going to loose it - and then, with the same breath, telling me I need to relax! You know, I work near a metropolitan area, and let me tell you how many successful people are working from home - with no staff or direct personal interactions with angry people! These people have skill sets that allows them to even change their line of work or career... Imagine that! What a career choice we have picked... and WE PAID FOR IT! We actually paid to become what were are today. I have owned this nightmare practice for 15 years and I cannot take it. How do I get out? ... i know - you can't. Thank God for this website.
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Dr. C
9/3/2019 07:48:24 am
Hi BTAP, I'm saving money and plan on leaving dentistry in a few short years. If you want out now, have you thought about talking to a job coach or a career counselor. They may have ideas that you haven't thought of. Also, your practice might be worth more than you think. So, with the proceeds from the sale and ideas from a qualified and trained professional, you might be able to exit this profession. If you have an exit strategy it will make the time you are a dentist more bearable.
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Beaten to a Pulp
9/3/2019 08:08:30 am
Thanks for the advice. And I'm sure you know that the word "complain" is an understatement. I just had to vent. I NEVER feel at peace, always anxious - and then when I go away and spend quality time with my family like I just did for 3 days - I have to pay the piper when I get back. Its unreal. So tired of it. I love the patients that go away on vacation for 2 weeks because they work on a computer. I would so rather do that then deal with what I am dealing with here.
Reality Bites
9/3/2019 10:22:10 am
BTAP, unfortunately it's very late in the game for you to switch careers and also very unrealistic given the extreme cost in time, money and years of education required to do so. The strain on your marriage/family could be extreme and devestating. You would also be an older person with two decades less experience than others in whatever field you would enter. Unless you are a genius at coding and inteact with a computer all day, I don't know any field that allows you to avoid human contact. Throw in age-discrimination and older male-discrimination in hiring and not being self-employed and you're looking at a disaster. I assume that you've made a decent living for the last 15 years to be able to support a family/lifestyle. You will not make the same amount working for someone else and can always lose your job at any time.
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Danster
9/3/2019 09:49:44 am
I am working on finding a service that people desire (unlike dental treatment), are willing to pay for with cash, and will return to want more with no chance of insurance headaches. - And, hardly any staff headaches. All while not having to throw away my education and go to work at Auto Zone or Home Depot.
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Tony
9/3/2019 01:35:56 pm
Danster,
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Danster
9/3/2019 12:26:52 pm
Reality Bites said it perfectly. I am chanting "less is more" every day.
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Dr. C
9/3/2019 03:00:48 pm
Danster,
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Reality Bites
9/3/2019 05:58:16 pm
Only 2 employees - both assistants who can also answer the phone and book appointments. One works during the week, the other on Saturdays. When one is out, the other subs in. Neither has ever called in sick in 12 and 15 years, respectively. Both are respectful and early to work. No receptionist, no hygienists - no kidding. I usually answer my own phones (for the last 3 years after firing my last, insubordinate receptionist). Patients love speaking with the doctor. How does it work, you ask? Like a charm.
Danster
9/3/2019 02:44:56 pm
AAFE - American Academy of Facial Esthetics. First class, and one of the most detailed CE programs I have seen. Fantastic review of facial anatomy. I HIGHLY recommend this program if you are getting into this- They train plastic surgeons and dermatologists as well as dentists. Its just first class, and you want to be able to say you trained with the best.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/3/2019 03:33:20 pm
I am currently researching the by laws of the state I practice in to see what limitations, if any, there are in dentists administering Botox and dermal fillers. There are plenty of spas and cosmetic centers in my area that may be looking for qualified people for just that. Is there a dentist on this thread that has had experience with Botox? Any suggestions?
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Reality Bites
9/3/2019 05:49:56 pm
I know a few dentists who do Botox, etc. Very limited income from it and many people think the dentists who do this are, frankly, quacks. Most of the public thinks this is the perview of MDs. I know one dentist whose patient developed paresthesia following botox administration. Hasn't resolved itself, yet. You can role the dice, but I would not get involved in this. Also, your malpractice carrier will charge you higher premiums.
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Danster
9/3/2019 03:51:35 pm
I am in a very small town. (5,000).
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Dr. C
9/4/2019 09:02:34 am
Danster and Reality Bites, I really like your business model. After reading this I plan on making my practice even "smaller" by not doing procedures I really hate and get rid of those patients that have always been a problem. If I do that I can pare down on employees even more.
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Reality Bites
9/4/2019 11:52:57 am
Dr. C - really glad I could be of help. Happy to see that we can have a positive impact on each other. You will see a big difference in the amount of stress you have, both drama-wise and financially, by having the fewest number of employees possible. Also, very wise of you to forgo procedures that you hate and problem patients. These are really great steps to making this career manageable and rewarding.
Danster
9/4/2019 12:27:12 pm
Reality Bites - good points. Totally agree.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/4/2019 12:44:05 pm
Dr C- if you don’t mind me asking, what are some of the procedures that you hate that you no longer want to do? I stopped doing Endo about four years ago and that has made quite a bit of a difference. I hated when RCT was on my schedule. Especially a molar. How many cases of RCT come back to bite you in the future?. Pain, and pathology at the Apex a few years after you do the crown. And with the technology of the microscope that we now have, are we practicing below the standard of care if we aren’t Using one when doing Endo? And I no longer have any interest in surgical extractions. I have no desire to dig for root tips when the fees are so low. It the tooth has 3+ mobility I’ll gladly take it out. It’s why we have access to oral surgeons and endodontists. Spread the risk is all I can say. Plus the more we refer to them the better the gifts come holiday time.
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Dr. C
9/4/2019 12:55:18 pm
Those procedures you listed (surgical extractions and endo) are procedures I hate and have limited a lot, but will cut out entirely. I also plan on quitting all partials and dentures. The patients complain too much, so they can take their business elsewhere. Also, If someone seems very picky and they want cosmetic work I will proceed with caution, if at all. I will be very careful with cosmetic work, because some (but not all) are very hard to please.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/4/2019 12:52:53 pm
Just a follow up...I’d rather have an opening in my schedule than do a molar root canal. 😳
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Danster
9/4/2019 01:10:51 pm
I'd rather have a colonoscopy than make a lower denture
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/4/2019 01:19:00 pm
Danster...you’ll be awake for that?
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Danster
9/4/2019 01:23:35 pm
Well.... I guess I would have to have some of that Michael Jackson drug to ease my tension.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/4/2019 01:27:33 pm
I wonder how much George Washington complained about the dentures he wore.
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DJ
9/4/2019 02:41:29 pm
I used to stress over crowning a tooth that I had just performed a root canal on. Everything would seem fine and then a flare up might occur. The solution- refer to an endodontist and sleep at nite.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/5/2019 12:43:17 pm
DJ- absolutely agree. A lawyer would argue for his client that the dentist practiced below the standard of care if he didn’t use technology (in this case rotary files with a microscope) that would have resulted in a more favorable result. That’s why I don’t do endo anymore. And I do sleep better at night too.
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George Roberts
9/5/2019 10:21:23 am
To all the seasoned dentists out there please help me decide what to do:
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/5/2019 12:46:55 pm
No. Don’t do it. It’s borderline insanity.
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Giving Up
9/5/2019 10:36:38 am
Stay away from dentistry. Simple as that.
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george
9/5/2019 12:27:32 pm
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
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George,
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george
9/5/2019 12:28:02 pm
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
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Danster
9/5/2019 11:57:27 am
Hey George,
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george
9/5/2019 12:28:33 pm
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
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Reality Bites
9/5/2019 12:22:04 pm
George,
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george
9/5/2019 12:32:50 pm
Yes, I could moonlight and do digital marketing consulting, start a website etc. while still employed. Sounds easier than it is of course, but Like you mentioned...I was thinking about it and what if I just get a crap corporate job, make my 150-200, take the 500K dental school would cost and payoff 2/3 of my house now at 33 and worry about unemployment like everyone else....I mean if I can't be employed in digital analytics these days then I just don't know whats going to happen to our beautiful country. On the other hand, having a solid profession is nice and there is security in that.I don't want to be a 48 year old unemployed person that can't get a corporate job. With dentistry yeah you might be pissed, but you can fire staff, limit overhead or even work corporate but you will survive. if you get laid off in corporate world at an older age I don't know, then you go back and work for 30K? Sucks, wish I was smarter younger.
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Reality Bites
9/5/2019 12:58:30 pm
Unfortunately, it's much more difficult in every field these days versus decades ago and I don't have to tell you what happens to laid-off middle-aged males from a specific ethnic group - I have some as patients and none of them got hired again. It's gut-wrenching watching our country decline, but that's a discussion for another blog. You are not going to like, or last very long, at a corporate job. Nobody does, so don't rely on that. Plus, as an older new denist, you may find it difficult to get a job and then you'll be an unemployed dentist with serious debt. By the time you would go, private will be $700k and state shcools will be $400k. If you think firing staff and reducing overhead is easy, think again...and again and again. Wait for the wrongful termination suit, plus you can only cut overhead so much. Dentistry is notorious for high overhead - it's unavoidable.
George
9/5/2019 01:04:43 pm
reality bites-when you say "You are not going to like, or last very long, at a corporate job." do you mean dentist corporate job or digital/analytics corporate job or both?
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Reality Bites
9/5/2019 01:08:08 pm
Dental. Plus, you will have to sign a non-compete - in my state, it's normally 10 mile radius for 2 years.
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Reality Bites
9/5/2019 01:19:19 pm
George, just look at the numbers (A reiteration of what I posted before).
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george roberts
9/5/2019 01:23:09 pm
I could knock down the tuition to a loan of probably 250K @ 7% for 20 years. Assuming I would earn 350K as a private practice dentist is it so bad? Hard to really know what the dentists are making...really. but I'm assuming 350K. So let's say I could have a tuition loan of 250K when I graduuate, 500K for small practice loan, and survive between now and then (have a kid or two with the new wife hahahaha) is it still not doable?
Reality Bites
9/5/2019 01:29:57 pm
It will be doable for your divorce attorney. You will have an ex-wife, child support and see your kids on weekends, while you slave to pay the alimony and all the debt while having already plunked down $450k of hard-earned money (post-tax, BTW) to get it down to a $250k loan.
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Tony
9/5/2019 03:14:16 pm
George,
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george
9/5/2019 03:46:03 pm
general entrprenuership is HARD because you are introducing a new service to a new market. My view on dentistry is that the service is needed and that is taken out of the equation. Then the remainder is that you need to practice in an area that isn't saturated and/or market your services well so that people come to you versus another provider but you don't have to establish the service as a needed service...so I hear what you are saying, but if you make 350K you can payoff that debt...also part of that debt is an asset which is the practice and worth something. the tuition ok is a loss but as you pay your practice off you have an asset. am i crazy?
Tony
9/5/2019 04:59:24 pm
George,
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George
9/6/2019 07:10:42 am
thank you
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Danster
9/6/2019 04:12:48 am
George
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george
9/6/2019 07:13:00 am
thank you for taking the time to answer
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Reality Bites
9/6/2019 04:46:39 am
George,
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Reality Bites
9/6/2019 05:00:38 am
Oops...forgot something important. That 25 years in digital marketing would be from age 34 to 59. The 25 year career in dentistry would be from 39 to 64, so either you would actually LOSE $420k in lost net income (opportunity loss) while you go to dental school for 4 years. The other way around - you would make $420k MORE by doing what you're doing until age 64 (or about the same as dentistry until age 59).
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george
9/6/2019 07:16:47 am
reality does bite
Tony
9/6/2019 07:31:58 am
ooohhh. ouch.
george
9/6/2019 07:16:06 am
thank you for taking the time
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Danster
9/9/2019 01:39:03 pm
One more thing George....... Na, just kidding. I think every possible angle has been covered. Reality Bites painted a very very tough picture. Best wishes with whatever you decide.
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Reality Bites
9/10/2019 04:34:23 am
What really makes me sad are the dentists whom I've known for years, my age and younger, who are anxious to quit private practice as soon as possible due to everything we've posted about. Stress from financial issues, staff issues, insurance issues, patient issues. I've contemplated the same thing for a long time but just keep going, even though it seems to get worse every day. We just "keep going" as if we're serving time, which we really are. It's depressing. It goes to a broader issue of personal isolation and lack of social interaction and caring. Decades ago, neighbors helped each other and you had a sense of community that also gave you a sense of security. People were God-fearing and family oriented. They respected authority and professionals. We gradually lost this since the late 1960s and have ended up where we are now - selfish, suspicious, angry, uncaring. We all know, in our heart of hearts, that there is no career to escape to and that the grass is not greener on the other side, so we feel trapped. I just wish that, someday, we can all find peace.
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Teeth92
9/10/2019 06:24:45 am
RB you are spot on. That’s exactly why I sold after 24 years at 51 yo. I just could not serve one
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Teeth92
9/10/2019 06:27:42 am
Also it was demoralizing having to argue with Dr Google . And pts trying to blame you for their dental problems.
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Reality Bites
9/10/2019 10:59:32 am
My wife and I could exit now but I enjoy what I'm doing and really get satisfaction from helping people. I'm very fortunate that many of my patients are good, hard-working people, especially my Latino population. That's what keeps me going, otherwise I couldn't handle it. Kudos on being able to snag such a good position. Very difficult to come by.
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Danster
9/10/2019 08:03:55 am
This is a support group.. It could be renamed the dentist support group blog. Because it takes some of the anxiety away to vent to those who understand and care. Who listens to us at the end of a rough day? Who wants to hear about the stress of a denture refund or a complaining hygienist that wants more and more pay?
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Tony
9/10/2019 08:41:51 am
I think Dentist's support Blog is a better name. Dentistry sucks is funny at first but it demeans the Profession. I like being a dentist but the financial stress is the killer. Sucktember, eh ... September has arrived and I'm twiddling my thumbs as I always do. My great hygienist left because we didn't have a 401K and my assistant keeps asking about it too. One day, she'll leave too.
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Reality Bites
9/10/2019 11:04:35 am
Danster, you are so right! It's better than a therapist! Who better to understand what we are going through than other dentists? At least I receive much better compensation than you (sarcasm). I asked Aetna for an increase in one of my surgical fees last year...they gave me $1. No, I'm not kidding.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/10/2019 11:19:11 am
Danster-I am also a provider for some PPOs that pay demoralizingly low fees. Yes we have to “accept” that fee but it doesn’t mean we have to do the procedure. It costs us more to set up and break down the room than what the insurance company will pay. I always include a bone graft with the extraction fee because it does promote healing and reduces post op pain and swelling and readies the site for an implant as well. If the patient only wants the extraction done bc he doesn’t want to pay more out of pocket I just refer to a surgeon. There is Absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s not worth the risk, anxiety, aggravation and frustration knowing I am only getting reimbursed $40 for the procedure. It’s like 4th down and 20. Just punt it as far as you possibly can.
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Danster
9/10/2019 09:28:15 am
I agree with Tony. Dentistry Sucks isn't good. Its elements of the job that makes it suck. And what we were trained to do is low on the list of
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Danster
9/10/2019 01:02:45 pm
Bill- Do you see good PPO payment for the socket grafts? I am versed in that procedure, and might follow you on that advice.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/10/2019 04:09:51 pm
Danster-the reimbursement for grafting depends on the PPO as u know. Some plans don’t cover it at all so u can charge an appropriate fee for that. My rule of thumb is if they don’t do the graft I refer it out. And yes it is a shame about looking at a patient in terms of revenue...but all healthcare is like that and if we as dentists don’t look at it that way we will starve.
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Reality Bites
9/10/2019 04:12:05 pm
In the past two weeks, three of my patients who found me online for second opinions, had the following:
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Danster
9/11/2019 06:30:55 am
Thanks RB, Appreciate the sharing. Those stories from others help, because I sometimes think I am in a bad dream alone. Its amazing how subjective diagnosis can be. So many dentists are strapped financially, they are like wolves out for blood whether its ethical or not.
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Reality Bites
9/11/2019 09:19:06 am
Unfortunately, this is just a fraction of what I've seen, particularly in the last 5 years. It's not subjective diagnosis, it's outright fraud and assault/battery. Drilling down perfectly healthy teeth and "treating" or cutting perfectly healthy gums. These occurrences are from private offices, not corporate. All equally culpable. I may not be able to stay open for 10-13 more years (my goal) with my schedule getting spottier and spottier, but I'd rather close up shop sooner than lose my soul.
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Tony
9/11/2019 02:49:46 pm
I'm very conservative too. I think that's how dentistry should be practiced. If you want a perfect looking smile with a bunch of crowns we can do that but no one in my practice is looking for that. I like how I practice but it's not enough.
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Dr. C
9/11/2019 03:53:26 pm
Are you planning on selling to a corporation and then practicing mobile dentistry? Keep us posted on how things turn out.
Drill Fill and Bill
9/11/2019 08:17:14 am
Certainly no shortage of dental hacks out there. If I’m guilty of anything it’s under-selling and being too conservative. I treat everyone as though they are my immediate family. I have a conscious and need to be able to sleep peacefully at night. I don’t claim to be the worlds greatest dentist or anything close to that but some of the crap dentistry I see is truly both remarkable and disgusting.
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Reality Bites
9/11/2019 09:22:07 am
DFB, that's the proper way to practice. It negatively impacts your busyness and income but you know you're doing the right thing. I applaud people like you.
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Tony
9/12/2019 07:13:45 am
I hit the funk today. September sucks. My assistant and I are sitting around, we've had a bunch of cancellations and we're not producing enough to break even. I knew it was going to happen because it always happens in September. Payroll lives on though ... and the bills never stop. Will I get paid this payroll? No. I'll take a draw with whatever is left over to pay the essential bills at home.
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Over Done
9/12/2019 08:28:00 am
Tony, I feel ya brother. Sucktember has hit with full force. I am the same as you, in that I can produce alot, but I can't make up things to do on my patients and be able to sleep at night. I feel like I am wasting my years doing something for chump change,, and also hate doing , when I could go back to school and do something different. I feel like the stress i feel every day will eventually cause my early death. This job sucks the life out of you. I really can't remember the last time I felt truly happy about something. I fake it so much at work, I think I no longer can distinguish between real and fake happyness. I really want to sell the practice and take a sabbatical for like 6 months. maybe do some locum work.
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Reality Bites
9/12/2019 08:42:34 am
Tony, I don't know what part of the country you're in, but same here regarding September. Absolutely blows every year, especially this year. Stomach in knots, and it shouldn't be at 57. Fortunately, my wife is doing well and brings in a good income. Corporate is a no-win situation. You'll get fired again for not producing ("selling"). Same goes for working as an employee in private offices these days. I looked into it to supplement my practice and immediately knew I wasn't going that route. They also offered me the equivalent of 1 year's net income for my practice and a 2-year, 5-mile restrictive covenant and, since they don'y buy real estate, I would have to be their landlord. Yeah, right!
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Giving Up
9/12/2019 09:00:22 am
I think perhaps the roles should change. Hygienists should be the ones that set up practices, get the loans, do payroll, maintain licenses, do cleanings and perio , give the anesthesia , and hire dentists to work for them. Let them get a dose of the bad medicine we dentists have to deal with everyday. The dentists gets paid FIRST at $120/HR. Let them establish the treatment plans perhaps and be the ones primarily responsible for the outcome. ( Just woke up from a pleasant dream). Thought I would tell you all about.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/13/2019 08:42:12 am
Is everyone else just sitting around on their asses this month? It’s enough to feel depressed and anxious and frustrated all the other months but when it’s slow it just makes this ball and chain harder to carry around. Had a patient this morning who needed number 14 extracted. Tooth was salvageable but she couldn’t afford to restore the tooth. Turns out she didn’t have finances to have it extracted either. She wanted to make payments of $50 a month. Do people make us out to be fools? Who in their right mind would agree to this? It’s downright insulting for a patient to even ask for that. What would normally be a 30 minute commute for me turn into 90 minutes due to 2 separate accidents. Three emergencies and none of those patients could afford any treatment. Today is Friday 13th… I’m calling it a day and going home to have a few coronas. I will try and focus on the many aspects of my life that I should learn to appreciate more. My health, my family and their health, and of course this blog. I should also learn to not be so hard on myself and not allow this profession to beat me and suck the life out of me. There are so many people in the world who have it much, much worse than we do. Have a good weekend everybody
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Reality Bites
9/13/2019 10:10:44 am
NYC area reporting. Confirm sitting on my ass this month. Same issue with people's finances. Nation-wide phenomenon. Agree that people in the world have it much, much worse than we do, unless we go Communist. God help us.
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Giving Uo
9/13/2019 08:55:28 am
Paying you for that highly needed crown or extraction interferes with their beer and cigarette budget, especially on payday.
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Beaver Tail
9/13/2019 04:23:53 pm
Brothers and Sisters, feel a little guilty posting on this site cause I feel like I'm betraying a friend but I've had a JD on the rocks and my inhibitions have subsided. This site is therapeutic and I visit once or twice a month. Since I'm commenting will visit more regularly. I've practiced for 18 years in just about every imaginable situation and after next week, I'm taking a month off and I need it badly. Just counting the days!
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Reality Bites
9/14/2019 04:00:27 am
Welcome and don't feel guilty! It is therapeutic and the only site I have ever posted comments in my life. Now I post a lot. I'm guilty of checking it multiple times daily as I get e-mail alerts when there are new posts. You'll get the same way because we get to blow off steam and give each other advice. I'm guessing that tens of thousands of dentists visit this site regularly.
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Reality Bites
9/14/2019 09:42:00 am
Tough Saturday today. Decided to pen a post before leaving.
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Beaver Tail
9/14/2019 12:05:25 pm
RB,
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/16/2019 06:44:57 am
It Monday morning. The schedule is more than half empty. Filled with non production. Im at my whits end. Dont know what to do anymore. I need suggestions on how everyone else on this blog copes with their anxiety, frustration, stress and depression.
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Dr. C
9/16/2019 07:02:27 am
I took Reality Bites and Danster's advice and cut way down on staff and am in the process of cross training the 2 I have left. I feel better already.
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Reality Bites
9/16/2019 10:41:32 am
Good for you!
Reality Bites
9/16/2019 10:58:27 am
It doesn't help a lot, but know that you are not alone. It's not you or anything you did or did not do.
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Danster
9/16/2019 07:15:19 am
I appreciate these recent comments. Thank you. I'm in the same boat.- feels like the Titanic and there are not enough life rafts.
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Danster
9/16/2019 07:24:22 am
Dr. C, Glad to hear the great news. I know you have made some tough decisions, and changes. Very stressful stuff we all know about.
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Dr. C
9/16/2019 07:31:21 am
Danster, I plan on saving it! I was wondering how long you practiced with just 2 workers and if you noticed a drop in production? If you did, did the lower overhead make up for it? Please let me know as much details about how you practice. I'm very interested, and I'm sure others are as well. Thank you in advance.
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Reality Bites
9/16/2019 10:54:46 am
I know this is coming from a specialist, but my production (and of course net profit) increased 15% the year after I went to 2 employees from 3 employees (4 years ago). It's decreased since then, due to the overall economic and patient changes that affect us all, but it is still higher than when I had 3 employees. It also relieved the poisonous work environment she created. I know several dentists (about 40 years old) with whom I work who did the same thing over the last 7-8 years and have their assistants answer the phones, etc. It's worked well for them, too.
Danster
9/16/2019 09:26:38 am
Dr. C, Congratulations!, I hope things are a bit better for you from here on. There is no magic formula. And I certainly don't have the answers. I am simply trying to tame the 8 headed fire breathing monster called dentistry. It will devour you from the inside to the outside if you let it. I knew, like all of you, that my mental , physical ( and financial ), health was at risk if I did not leave this business or get some sort of control of the monster. And! it is work in progress. I still have all the issues most of you have. Daily struggles.
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Giving Up
9/16/2019 10:50:02 am
If every dentist knew about this blog there would be tens of thousands of horror stories. The ADA is a worthless institution as they should be advocating for a 500% increase in dental insurance fee allowances. We are still in the 1970s when it comes to prices but in the 2040's in expenses.
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Danster
9/16/2019 12:08:54 pm
I agree about the ADA. And Reality Bites said some of the things I was going to mention. By lowering staff size, you not only lower expenses, you lower stress, headaches, etc. and that = more positive spirit in the office = happier patients, happier staff, happier Dr.. I also cut my work week to Monday, Tues, and Wednesday. And my $ numbers stayed about the same. I cut everything I could. Like we have all said. These changes allow you to weather the slow times (barely lately). Its still a monster job, and insurance companies are getting worse and worse, but, I seem to let things roll off me better. And my stress level at work seems better, and I still make about the same amount of income. I am not a large $ practice. About average. But, get that stress level down with any means possible and forget about the money. It will be there. You just want to get the stress down. Also, what if you get the flu? or twist an ankle? or just need to be off for a few days? Big staff means big troubles. Small staff means freedom and time to live.
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Tony
9/17/2019 07:57:24 am
Report from Colorado. My friend's offices are dead. We're dead. Just sitting around doing non-productive shit. I have a small office too. Three staff. One of them can temp on her day's off so there's no stress for her.
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Dr. C
9/17/2019 08:55:27 am
I can't even imagine the stress that new graduates with a huge student loan debt are under. Dentistry is in a bubble right now.
Danster
9/17/2019 09:12:52 am
I live in a small rural town. Been here 27 years.
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Reality Bites
9/17/2019 09:57:31 am
Danster, the new graduates at the really large GPR where I attend and from the state dental school are only getting crappy offers and corporate jobs. The ones who can go into Mom or Dad's practice cannot because there's not enough business for an extra pair of hands, or they go in and dilute each other's schedules. The range of debt for the residents is $250k - $500k for state graduates and private graduates, respectively. Average 6.8% interest. They are tapped out and, frankly, scared of more debt, and who can blame them? They also don't seem to have the same drive to work hard and take on any risk as previous generations did. It's like they have no fire in their belly, likely due to their upbringing.
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Danster
9/17/2019 10:09:35 am
RB, I am getting the opportunity to confirm everything you just said.
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Reality Bites
9/17/2019 12:47:27 pm
Be very careful with Botox. I personally would not do it.
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Drill Fill and bill
9/17/2019 11:10:54 am
Danster- keep us posted on how the Botox opportunity works out. I’ve been contemplating that as well. Just wondering how much malpractice will increase. I’ve been doing this for 30 years and Ive grown to hate clinical dentistry with a passion.
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Danster
9/18/2019 07:06:45 am
One lady said "I will be late on paying my power bill to get botox".
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Danster
9/18/2019 07:04:30 am
RB and D and FB, I am just like you about Botox and Dermal Fillers. It seems somewhat foreign and risky with the current highly demanding society. I have been to the best training in the country.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/18/2019 07:28:59 am
With most Botox patients it’s like putting lipstick on a pig
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Tony
9/18/2019 03:06:36 pm
Whenever I go to the local dental society meeting our reps stand up and tell us what our state dental society is doing for us. And they always ask for feedback... "Just send us an email with comments or thoughts.." they say.
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Reality Bites
9/18/2019 03:27:42 pm
I don't go to meetings anymore. Same deal with the annual state officers meeting. They visit our county chapter and tell us all the wonderful things they are doing for us while the 20 people who bothered to show up for the free meal just roll their eyes. Same thing every year. I have no choice but to be a member since I can't belong to my specialty association and can't maintain my board-certification without being an ADA member. Total dues = $2700. What a waste of hard-earned money. And how pathetic - 20 old timers show up and the youngsters don't bother to come. If it ain't by iPhone, forget it!
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Reality Bites
9/19/2019 01:42:14 pm
Just found out I was flamed with a 1 star Google review. Felt my heart almost give out. Gave a compassionate and reasoned response. Have multiple 5 star reveiws and so many patients who really love and appreciate me. People are just getting nastier. Not just dentistry - everywhere. Just spoke with one of my dentist friends (my age) to commiserate and we both agree that we may not see 60 in this profession. You bend over backwards, are kind and diligent, and it doesn't matter. We don't deserve this. Having to worry that everyone who walks through the door can try to ruin your practice in seconds. Let all of these nasty people fall prey to the thieves and charlatans out there when I'm gone and permanently on the golf course. I pray for us all.
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Filthy Pie Hole
9/19/2019 05:46:57 pm
Glad to know I'm not alone. The profession has been a gradual beat down of my happiness and self esteem for the last 13 years. It's led me to become very frugal to save money in the hopes to get out early. Hoping my back and mental health last until then. This job really does suck. Nobody outside the profession understands what a shit show it is.
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Drill Fill and bill
9/19/2019 05:53:24 pm
RB-had a few of those over the past few years. And those bad reviews have nothing to do with the actual dentistry that I provided for the patient. They originate from an issue with a staff member, or a discrepancy in finances. There is just no loyalty left in this profession. If you don’t greet a patient with a smile, or a handshake, or if you keep them waiting too long, you get a bad review. I hate social media. It sucks when we get these reviews. Don’t take it to heart. You know you’re a good person and a good dentist and you do your best for your patients. Have a beer and try to forget about it
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Giving Up
9/19/2019 06:08:53 pm
What amazes me is how anyone that we talk to about these problems outside of the profession think we are just whining babies and that we are griping about nothing.
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Drill Fill and Bill
9/23/2019 08:23:57 am
I need your opinion people… I needed to let this simmer over the weekend before I posted. I had a patient come in last week saying that his veneer on # 10 discolored. Veneers from 7-10 were inserted four months ago. I tried in the veneers with trying paste and got the patients approval to insert. Even got his signature stating that no changes can be made once they were inserted. I have post op photos as well. He demanded that I redo the veneer. I said I would be happy to as long as the fee is paid. Now… This patient falls into the category of those that are hard to please and very demanding. He started to become loud and borderline verbally abusive towards me. I got up from the chair and walked away. Thankfully the office manager came in and intervened and diffused the situation. in my honest opinion I did not see what the patient saw as far as the discoloration goes. This entitled behavior eats away at my inner core...causing anger, frustration and genuine disgust at everything this profession is doing to my overall well being. I used to be a happy guy. I truly was. Dentistry is destroying my soul. If I had the financial freedom to just say f*ck all this bullsh*t I would walk away tomorrow with a big smile on my face.
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Dr. C
9/23/2019 08:39:17 am
This is why I am very careful with cosmetic dentistry lately. I delay or simply don't do cosmetic dentistry on "hard to please patients." I have plenty of patients I will, but there are some that I won't do cosmetic dentistry.
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Reality Bites
9/23/2019 10:37:32 am
DFB, do not re-do the veneer and do not refund the money. You did everything right including the signed approval and photos. As you know, refunding money can be interpreted as an admission of guilt, and definitely don't re-do it since it nullifies the original signed approval, it may come out worse the second time and he will never be happy. If you get a horrible review, show compassion, even though he doesn't desreve any, and be professional. I feel for you and all of us. The day I lock the door for the last time will be the happiest day of my life - sad to say. That is, unless I have a heart attack first.
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Giving Up
9/23/2019 10:40:51 am
I agree with Reality Bites. RB beat me to it. Do not refund a dime to this ridiculous patient.
Giving Up
9/23/2019 08:46:44 am
The problem is, is that you can't tell these prikks are going to come out of the bushes until it's too late.
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DJ
9/23/2019 09:20:50 am
People like this are impossible. Constructive criticism is needed to help us improve but I know what you mean with this dude. Might be best to refund the 1 veneer and cut him loose. Pretty hard to work on people that you don’t trust.
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Dr. C
9/23/2019 02:30:31 pm
I have cosmetic dentistry patients who are worse to deal with than denture patients. That's why if I'm going to do the work I'm going to charge enough to make it worth my time. I try to weed out the bad ones, though, but it's hard. Sometimes I can't see them coming.
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Danster
9/23/2019 03:00:38 pm
I personally tend to agree with no refund and no re do. But, we have all been in this situation numerous times, and I always wonder just how pissed off will this person get? Will I loose their extended family? Their neighbors? Sunday School class or all the teachers at the local school? I usually try to re fund the $ for the tooth they "claim" is not perfect, which we all know its BS, and politely send them a letter saying they have special dental needs that cannot be met in our office and best wishes in the future.
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New Dentist
9/25/2019 08:53:08 pm
Boy am I glad i found this forum..graduated recently and have been practicing for a year now as an associate at a couple different private offices..it has its perks vs owning a practice, but I still have my ups and downs. I do pretty much everything, a lot of crowns, oral surgery and root canals, especially molars. But doing a lot of these procedures certainly comes at a cost to your mental and emotional health. Seems like when everything finally starts going smoothly, another problem with an entitled patient pops up. Perhaps I need to do a better job of conveying to them that their tooth is compromised, and there is no such thing as a 100% success rate despite my best efforts. I would say 98% of my patients are happy, but it is that 1-2% of cases where problems flare up that really stresses me out and keeps me up at night. Maybe this is a problem with me..In addition to having empathy and trying to always do right by my patients, I am naturally a somewhat anxious person...
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Ren
9/30/2019 03:34:29 pm
New grad here. I’ve been working as an associate for a couple of offices a few months now and I have to say I DREAD going to work. There is no excitement no anticipation, I’m just dragging my feet. My employers are extremely business savvy people to the point that dentistry is second to business. To them everything is about efficiency, ‘sale’ the most $$ treatment plan, or do the least but earn the most. I wanted to quit on the spot today when my employer in front all his staff and other associates sternly admonished me for not being in the ‘state of mind’ to sale. Told me everything in dentistry is elective including toothaches and that I wasn’t saving anybody. This really got to me. I know I’m not a cardiac surgeon but I certainly didn’t go into this career to be a salesperson pushing unnecessary treatment so I can make enough to live a decent life. I was already having doubts in residency but these past few months working really made me realize that maybe this isn’t the right path for me. But the sunken costs are just massive. I don’t even know where I can do from here.
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Giving Up
9/30/2019 03:42:08 pm
Stop! While you're young. Reconsider what your undergraduate major was. For example, if you were a chemist major, look into what that field can provide. Other than that, I would work in the military as a dentist.
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Teeth92
9/30/2019 03:54:07 pm
Giving Up is exactly right. I would consider the military or public health if you want to stay in dentistry. You can find offices that don’t only focus on the business of dentistry , but it may take a while . Dentistry has evolved from a respected healthcare profession into a business model that focuses on sales ,profits, and excessive advertising.
Drill Fill and Bill
9/30/2019 04:06:48 pm
Here is my current situation: I have been practicing dentistry for the past 30 years. We just sold our office to a large DSO and it has been nothing short of a horror show. I’m at the tail end of my career and I’m seeing the corporate side of dentistry that I’m not accustomed to. It isn’t pretty. It’s very discouraging in fact. I actually feel for the new dentists out there who have to subject themselves to being a salesman first and a dentist second. If I could talk to the 24 year old version of me I would tell him to join the military. Take care of the enlisted and their families. Never worry about staff issues. Overhead. Bills. Production. Insurance collection. Treatment plan acceptance. Rude patients...just put in your time. Collect a nice salary with benefits and retirement plan. It’s a no brainer. The greatest agony of the soul is to live in the wonder of what might have been.
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Reality Bites
9/30/2019 05:02:31 pm
All the dentists I know, including myself, know it's over. Is it me or are things getting worse at warp speed? We estimate that we have no more than 10 years left as private practitioners, and we're all established for decades. No hope for the fresh grads, unless you oversell unnecessary procedures (which more and more do). Like a civilization in decline, it's a slow death by a thousand cuts.
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dolph
9/30/2019 09:44:58 pm
Yeah, it's pretty much over. We made the wrong career choice.
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Reality Bites
10/1/2019 04:17:46 am
Dolph, you are 100% correct that we are regressing to the medieval lords/serfs dynamic and that people are in denial. It affects all aspects of life and all professions. Corporate/political masters control everything now and wages will continue to decline to what amounts to indentured servant wages. Frankly, we have already reached that level in many, former middle-class jobs. When people are in debt and trying to put food on the table, they are not going to spend it, especially at the dentist. 1945-1988 was the golden period never to be seen again. Only the Silent Generation timed their births perfectly.
Giving Up
9/30/2019 05:09:40 pm
RB, you nailed it. It's over. The ADA didn't come to the rescue, our voice can't be heard for a bailout like GM AND FORD , and the general public along with the easy disparagement from social media has killed us. I'm filing for bankruptcy this week. I've taken a fukitol pill and am saying goodbye to this despicable nightmare.
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dolph
9/30/2019 09:47:01 pm
If you're not in the boardroom, you don't count. It's as simple as that.
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Reality Bites
10/1/2019 04:09:16 am
Giving Up, although we've never met I'm truly sorry for your situation. I hope that you are just venting and not really filing for bankruptcy. The world is totally upside down when the people who are really caring and honest face hardship while the selfish, self-centered thrive at the expense of others.
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Tony
10/1/2019 07:17:46 am
Giving up, I hope it gets better. It's a crying shame that it's come to this.
Tony
10/1/2019 08:06:15 am
I finally reached my local and regional dental associations to tell them I was dropping out of organized dentistry. I related the shit we have to go through with the dental and other corporations that are taking control of our profession. It amazes me all contact information was missing from the website, probably for years, and nobody noticed. Apathy in action.
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Danster
10/1/2019 02:50:53 pm
ADA fees, when attached to my state association, are rather high - $100/month. What are we getting for the investment? A magazine?
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Giving Up
10/1/2019 03:08:43 pm
If any group needed governmental bailouts it would be dentists. That'll never happen. You are exactly right Danster,, the insurance companies need to be severely investigated and fined. Dentists should place class action lawsuits against these monsters and the ADA should be doing this for us.
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Reality Bites
10/3/2019 11:17:17 am
Last 5 new patient calls: No money, no money, shit insurance, wants insurance to pay for everything, Medicaid. It's like a nightmare that I can't wake up from and I feel completely isolated and alone. Depression and anxiety reign. I've been overly optomistic (or masochistic) to think I can last 10 more years like this. Actively looking at other avenues. None has panned out yet, but hopeful about one next week. One can still hope, right? Will I just have to lock the door and sell the condo? The state of things, including the direction of the country, is just plain frightening.
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dolph
10/3/2019 02:54:06 pm
Aside from the upper middle class, nobody has any money left anymore. By design!
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Reality Bites
10/4/2019 04:10:01 am
As anyone who's been in this business long enough knows, the top 10%, especially the top 1%, are generally the worst patients - demanding and not forthcoming with payment. With few exceptions, that's been my experience. Fortunately, I rarely get them. You can keep them.
Drill Fill and Bill
10/3/2019 01:20:44 pm
The month of September has been the worst that I can remember. Production and collection is half of what it normally is for us. I can’t sustain this any longer. I’m at my whits end. If the first few days of October are any sign it’s gonna be another bad month. We do ortho in our office and September was the first time in 5 years we didn’t start a case. I know we all post our misery collectively here but what is the reason things are so bad all around and all the sudden? I stopped going on social media and I don’t watch or read the news anymore. Yeah I get alerts on my phone but what the heck is going on? The world has gone mad and it seems people are divided more than ever. It seems like everyone is angry and pissed off at something. Something has to give. And I’m afraid it’s gonna be me.
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Reality Bites
10/3/2019 02:41:22 pm
Exact same situation for me Sept/Oct. Worst I ever had and no end in sight, and I'm in the largest metropolitan area in the US. Country is tearing itself apart politically and the media is feuling a sense of dread and fear in everyone leading to anger and distrust. Middle class is disappearing. 60% of the country does not even have $400 for an emergency. We are witnessing a regression to the global mean - the vibrant middle class of the 50's through the 80's is a distant memory. Global economy means low wages with no benefits and corporate control. We are an empire in decline just like every empire before us. Socialism will take control as will wealth re-distribution as the next generations (Millennials and Gen Z) has nothing and therefore nothing to lose. We don't exactly have a WWII generation following us. That's it in a nutshell.
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dolph
10/3/2019 02:57:53 pm
It's split 50/50 now. It's just the way it is folks. Those of you posting here, your patients are in the bottom half. The world has changed. In the world today, the worst jobs to be in are the ones with the "true believers", so to say, since the system is disintegrating in many ways. But the true believers just keep on telling you to suck it up and keep marching on.
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Teeth92
10/3/2019 03:17:49 pm
There has also been a shift in patients mindsets. In the past, pts expected to pay. And they wanted quality care and a personal relationship with their dentist. Healthcare specifically dentistry was viewed as being important and not a commodity that is purchased and bargained for lower and lower fees. Pts expect “dental insurance “ to pay everything or they expect the dentist give them a discount and throw in something free too. When these same pts need a lawyer , they pay upfront and there is no “legal insurance “, but in today’s culture dental care is seen as a right .
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Dr C
10/3/2019 05:40:18 pm
I remember those days. At the end of the appointment the patient would take out their checkbook and politely ask: okay, what do I owe you?
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Rosin Bag
10/6/2019 07:07:57 pm
A little prework week levity and dark humor:
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Danster
10/7/2019 02:19:00 pm
A few years ago, insurance payment amounts were predictable. You could count on the patient paying their part and the insurance company paying their part. Maybe not a fair fee, but predictable.
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dolph
10/8/2019 10:31:06 pm
Yes, and if they don't want to pay you, what does that tell you about where you stand in the hierarchy of things?
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Tony
10/9/2019 08:08:48 am
Dolph,
dolph
10/13/2019 03:54:09 am
I don't know what to do but those are some interesting ideas.
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Teeth92
10/13/2019 10:28:47 am
Dolph, your comments are very interesting and thought provoking—I enjoy reading them. What profession or business would you recommend a young person enter into considering the state of things in dentistry ?
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dolph
10/22/2019 05:13:49 pm
Thanks teeth92, I appreciate it but I can't help you. If I could help you, my name would be Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, or Jeff Bezos.
Tony
10/15/2019 08:15:27 am
Dolph,
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Drill Fill and Bill
10/15/2019 08:24:00 am
I think I am losing my mind and straying into dark murky waters that I would not have seen myself in just a few years ago. Call it a midlife crisis or just an overall tailspin but this profession and my reaction to it have taken me to places that I am not proud of. Gambling and drugs. I need help and I need advice
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Teeth92
10/15/2019 12:23:03 pm
DFB, at 42 yo I went into a depression after owning a practice for 14 years. I had never experienced a depression like that before. I thought I was losing my mind. Luckily, I called a friend of mine who was a P.A. and knew the best psychologists in the area and he got me in right away. Through good counseling and meds , I was able to continue practicing until I was 51 yo. I sold my practice due to the physical toll and I have never been happier. Dentistry is a very difficult profession. You are not alone. There are many dentists in the same predicament. Please reach out to your doctor and get help. Also your state should have a dental society program for dentists who are experiencing the same issues .You will feel much better.
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Tony
10/15/2019 01:52:40 pm
Good comment, Teeth92. Professional helped helped me regain some sanity. ... and antidepressants. The combo has helped a lot.
Beaten to a Pulp
10/16/2019 07:01:59 am
Its unfortunate that this profession lends itself to such misery where we need meds and psychological intervention on such a large scale. It is not a natural state to feel this way and it says a lot about the state of the profession. I am 43 myself and have been in practice for 16 years and practice owner for 14 years and the stress is killing me as well. It hurts my family as well as it is almost impossible not to have it follow you home. The problem is that we are not naturally depressed people... this profession creates that environment. We are then labeled as such. The few times I have a short vacation where I can detach myself, I turn into a whole new human being. When I come back, I feel as if I'm entering the gates of hell as the misery just suffocates me. I feel so beaten. Counseling and antidepressants are much better than the alternative I suppose. I guess the best thing we can do is hope for the best and try as hard as we can to get out, if that will even be possible in the next 10 years with the way this country is going. I wish you all the best, I truly do. You are not alone, I can tell you that.
dolph
10/22/2019 05:10:44 pm
Of course get help, get whatever supplements or drugs to get you through it.
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Giving Up
10/16/2019 07:12:04 am
I've not been happy in over 35 years when I started dental school. I hardly take vacations due to the horror of coming back. Being a dentist is horrible.
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Beaten to a Pulp
10/16/2019 07:48:57 am
I second that!
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Drill Fill and Bill
10/21/2019 11:06:51 am
Giving up-I feel exactly the same way. I remember being nervous in dental school and feeling anxiety before I saw a patient and believe it or not I still get like that after 30 years of practicing. It’s not for lack of confidence...I’ve seen and done it all. It’s just the fear of all that can go wrong during and after the procedure. I hate dentistry. It’s not normal to feel like this day in and day out. I’m always in battle with myself half the time convincing myself to find reasons to be happy and the other times feeling that my life sucks and I will never be happy until I walk out the door of my office for the last time. Do you know how many times I get to the exit to where I work and just dream of driving past it as far as I can go until the gas tank is empty. I know that when my time is almost up I will regret these choices I’ve made. That’s the saddest part of it all
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Tony
10/23/2019 07:34:28 am
Occasionally I do stupid stuff outside of dentistry like hold bottle rockets and roman candles with my bare hands. My wife gets so pissed off at me, telling me that I might blow off a finger and not be able to practice dentistry anymore. To myself I'm thinking... . okay, Disability could be the answer.
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Dr. C
10/23/2019 11:12:54 am
Tony, your comment is the saddest of all the comments on this forum.
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Over Done
10/23/2019 12:04:57 pm
Dr. C. don't be so harsh to Tony. I know I have had those same thoughts about getting disability if I hurt myself and actually being relieved to not be in the mouth anymore. Working in tiny dark holes within millemeters of tolerance on unappreciative assholes all day makes you day dream of all kinds of scenarios.
Beaten to a Pulp
10/23/2019 11:55:57 am
Tony, I am happy to hear I am not the only one who has thought that... I love the honesty in these posts.
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wife of a dentist
10/23/2019 10:22:30 am
I feel for all of you. The hell that my husband is in with his practice is so real. He tells me all the time that dentistry is the worst profession ever! I believe it.
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Drill Fill and Bill
10/23/2019 11:25:13 am
The choice I made going into dentistry ruined the opportunity I once had to have a happy life
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Drill fill and Bill
10/23/2019 12:35:39 pm
Think of what we’re up against like this: we enter an office. Then we enter an operatory. Then look into a mouth. Then at a tooth. Then we open than tooth where we are focused on a prep. Then we go deeper into proximal boxes, then line angles and point angles. Deeper and deeper into the tiniest of spaces where the line between success and failure is measured in fractions of a millimeter. Geez...and an endodontist does all this without being able to see what he’s doing at all. I have a headache now.
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Beaten to a Pulp
10/23/2019 01:39:08 pm
And that is just doing the dentistry, that does not include the one million other issues that are happening simultaneously such as an angry or anxious patient, an assistant with an attitude, money issues, phone calls... exhaustion... I feel the headache now too.
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Reality Bites
10/23/2019 05:14:30 pm
To Tony's point - been sick for 4 days with severe headaches and nausea (no fever, congestion - just absolute misery). Just starting to feel better this moment. My wife found out it's a virus going around that lasts about one week. I know that your health is the most important thing but, secretly, I was hoping for a career-ending malady. I know it's absolutely awful to think that way but, frankly, I got sick because of all the practice stress wearing down my immune system. Was watching "Field of Dreams" with Burt Lancaster playing the old doc and thought, boy, how great it was to practice in the medical field back when patients appreciated you, treatment was a practical, simple matter and you were a respected part of the community. Sad, to say the least.
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Tony
10/25/2019 07:09:00 am
Reality Bites, I love it when someone comes in from another office because they're frustrated about a dental issue and after a few minutes of discussion, I solve it. It's usually an occlusion thing. Dental assistant adjust high spots but I've found that I always find more than they do. Once I fix it, the patient is mine. I'm sure a large percentage of dentists would do a RCT in that situation but in my patient pool we don't do very many. My patients are generally affluent and healthy though. I really enjoy most patients and I like getting to know them. That's the best part of my practice. I feel good when I mill a crown and it's dead-on in color, shape, and occlusion. I feel good after a long day of production when everything works out like it's supposed to, we're all tired, but we did it as a team. I wish I got paid more. I wish I could pay my team more - we deserve it. But overall we're struggling financially. Millennials don't have many dental needs around here. I'm not a cosmetic dentist, I don't place implants or do ortho. I used to want to do more but I'm too tired.
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Reality Bites
10/25/2019 01:46:20 pm
Tony, just one of many instances...I actually had a patient some years ago who had gone to a neurologist, ENT and another specialist before getting to me and finding out, in 30 seconds, that it was TMD and all she needed was an occlusal guard. A lot of these "doctors" just miss the basics. All you have to do is listen to the patient, ask the right questions and you can fugure it out. KISS principle. They probably would have sent her for an MRI next - got to keep billing!
Drill Fill and Bill
10/25/2019 07:54:33 am
Reality Bites- I agree with you ...it’s not that difficult to win a patient over with a second opinion consult as I find most dentists over tx plan or don’t understand the fundamentals of occlusion. As far as what would I trade for retirement?? The pinky on my left hand or my Mickey Mantle rookie baseball card.
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Reality Bites
10/25/2019 01:10:34 pm
Tony, just in the final stage of this thing - headache coming on, but not as bad. When I'm like this, I can seriously say that I wouldn't trade any body part or my health for anything. It really is the most important thing, but I guess we take it for granted when we're younger and feel invincible. I just find it really pathetic that I can watch a classic like "Field of Dreams" and the only thing that sticks with me is how nice it was to be a doctor back then, instead of the damn baseball! But, I do have to say that, although my practice is no longer busy, I still treat people as Burt Lancaster did and most of them really appreciate it and express their gratitude. That's what keeps me going.
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Drill Fill and Bill
10/28/2019 12:45:55 pm
Happy Monday everybody. Another crappy day of dentistry is in the books. And another one on tap for tomorrow. Ain’t life just grand?
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Beaten to a Pulp
10/29/2019 05:17:47 am
I don't know how I am going to continue doing this for the next 20 years. I am stuck like everyone else. I am already so broken down. Continuous harassment from patients, staff... the fear of everything will go wrong (and you know it does sometimes), consequences, legal woes, exhaustion, isolation (thank God for these posts). Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat.
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Over done
10/29/2019 06:26:16 am
I feel ya Beaten, every day I come to my office i just want to curl up into a ball under my desk and hide. My days are filled with thoughts of how the hell to get out of this profession. I too have at least 20 more years left and it depresses the hell out of me to think of it. I would love to sell my practice and move my family to montana and live a subsistence type of life in isolation, but that wouldn't fly with the rest of my family. Too bad we can't Rinse and Repeat with some bourbon while at work. That might make the day a little easier to get through. 😉😜
Teeth92
10/29/2019 09:35:23 am
My suggestion to all new dentists is to try to get out or at least go to part-time by the time you are out 20 years. I owned for 20 and then sold my practice. It was the best thing I could do for myself . Now I work part-time. Dentistry is doable for me at 2 days a week with plenty of vacation. Demanding pts and staff plus the overhead to keep a solo practice going is soul crushing. Dentistry used to be a good profession.
Beaten to a Pulp
10/29/2019 06:54:35 am
Its so funny you say that. I have the same yearning desire to move into the wilderness and cut myself from society after doing this as long as I have. Not to be connected to anyone sounds and feels like such a wonderful thing. Its so sad that our psyches have warped so much being in this industry that we can no longer handle being with people. I feel like that all the time now. I was not like that when I started 16 years ago. But again, I have a family to support and have no way out. Just these posts.
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Tony
10/30/2019 07:27:54 am
We were having a decent month but two days of arctic weather evaporated production. We're not even going to make overhead this month. Hmm. So where am I going to get the extra? Same song and dance.... It's old. Except I don't care so much anymore.
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Reality Bites
10/30/2019 01:48:35 pm
Tony, you're a good person. Very few of us left out there. Just stay the way you are. It's the only way to be.
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Tony
10/31/2019 07:32:13 am
Today's a bad day. I just don't want to do this anymore. Few patients. No money. No hope. Ugh
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Beaten to a Pulp
10/31/2019 08:20:12 am
Tell them to do anything else but... then hope will return to them for the future...
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Drill Fill and Bill
10/31/2019 04:06:47 pm
Tony- Ive been having a lot of those days lately. Light schedule with no production and no money coming in. I spend time staring at the computer wondering what I am doing wrong. Blaming myself for having all these struggles in my life. The self loathing and self blaming makes it all so much worse. I try and steer my kids in a direction where they can choose a career path that will give them a sense of purpose and meaning and give them satisfaction and joy. I’m always asking myself what am I doing wrong
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Tony
11/1/2019 12:10:41 pm
Been reading about how the Middle Class and the Working Class are melding in this country. Historically the Middle Class had extra money to invest or save and the working class didn't. Now Americans are all buying bigger houses, RVs, vacations, experiences, and Stuff. They may also save to the 401Ks but their debt is usually bigger than their savings... So are we really Middle Class? How can dentistry compete with vacations, RV's, home theatres and Teslas? We can't. We're right up there with plumbers and electricians (no disrespect to those professions) but people call us when they have a problem. We'll do basic restorative dentistry but the dentists that provide Dental Teslas are few and far between. Meanwhile new dentists think that they have a golden ticket but they're going to struggle with debt. And silently in the background corporations, obvious and not; are silently buying practices for their dental REITs (Real Estate Investment Trusts).
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Reaity Bites
11/1/2019 03:21:40 pm
There's a place for us only as a cog in a very small, personalized setting because that's the one thing that is sorely lacking, not just in dentistry but in everything. People want to feel that they matter and that someone is looking out for them. That's the only way to practice/do business whether you're a doctor, dentist, lawyer, plumber...whatever. With all these soulless, impersonal corporations that just care about the money, a small businessman/professional can create his or her only little niche by just being a caring, thoughtful human being. Will it keep my doors open for the next 10 years? I don't know. Do I really want to practice for 10 more years under the current circumstances? No, but like all of you I just keep trying to get through each week.
Med school?
11/1/2019 07:38:03 pm
Hi all,
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Drill Fill and Bill
11/2/2019 01:54:48 am
Why would u want to go to Med School for another 6-8 years and put yourself in the hole another $500k? practicing Medicine is probably worse than dentistry these days. At lease in dentistry there are elective procedures not covered by insurance. In medicine you’ll be doing prostate exams on 60 year old men for $35 insurance fee. Working in the entrance is better than working in the exit
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Med school?
11/2/2019 03:50:10 am
Haha true. I figured you could get better pay for less patient interaction, but it’s a pretty dumb idea. I have been looking at a small 2-op office with really no overhead. It’s in a saturated place, but I really wouldn’t need too many patients. Im thinking of just trying to build that up with me and 1-2 staff just doing things that give me less anxiety: crowns, cleanings, fillings, and ortho. Goodbye failed endos, surgical exos, complaining denture patients, cosmetic patients, etc. The problem is when you are the main breadwinner you cannot settle for a low grossing office. Caught between a rock and a hard place!
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Drill Fill and Bill
11/3/2019 01:31:38 am
Those of you who sign onto this blog from time to time have seen my posts. Just wanted to say that I made my decision and have decided to stop practicing. I just cannot do it anymore. My AHAH moment came this past week with a few issues in my office that just broke me. I asked myself why am I constantly subjecting myself to such physical and mental torture on a daily basis. And I couldn’t provide myself with an answer that made any sense. It’s just time. I started putting feelers out there to see what opportunities are available for someone in my position where I could stay in the healthcare field but not practice dentistry any more. I fully understand there will be a significant pay cut but my happiness is worth much more that money. I live in South Florida and would welcome any additional advice and/or suggestions or can possibly steer me in a specific direction. Thank you all in advance for reading this and assisting me and I hope you all find joy and happiness. We all deserve it.
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Reality Bites
11/3/2019 04:07:59 am
DFB, I really feel for you and everyone on this blog who is having the same problems. Please think very carefully about this. I have looked for other opportunities over the last few years to supplement my practice, inlcuding interviewing at two corporate offices, one group practice and one out-of-the-box possibility (hospital-based), and I'm sorry to report that they were all horrible and I dismissed them out of hand. There are no decent clinical positions and there is no such thing as a non-clinical position for a dentist. I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but the only option is to work for yourself in the smallest practice setting possible with only one or two employees who are nice and understanding. They don't have to be great assistants, just reliable and easy to deal with. Unfortunately, every field is hyper-competitive and stressful now. The only ultimate escape is a well-funded retirement. As long as you are making a decent income of at least $150k, then stay put. You will not make that anywhere else and, even if you were fortunate to find anything like that, there is always the risk of being fired at any time. The grass is brown on both sides, but at least it's your grass when your self-employed.
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Teeth92
11/3/2019 05:34:42 am
DFB, thank you for sharing this. I had the same AHAH moment when I realized that I was physically sick all the time at 51yo and I sold my practice. It was such a relief.
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dolph
11/4/2019 08:09:51 pm
Go for it, absolutely. Just have a plan, and make that plan happen. Don't panic.
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Danster
11/4/2019 01:06:42 pm
DFB, I understand. We all do. RB was correct. Hard to find a job with our skills and education other than what we do.
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dolph
11/4/2019 08:26:31 pm
There are always options. I see 50, 60 year old guys stacking shelves and driving vans around. I bet you, not a single one of them chose that as their career back in the 20s and 30s.
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Reality Bites
11/5/2019 02:21:57 am
Danster, your response is perfect. Could not have come up with a better list myself. I don't have TVs in my office because I'm not a TV fan (except movies at home for relaxation/escape) and I don't walk 30 minutes a day (go to the gym 3X/week for brief workouts), but I do all the rest. Last Saturday after work, when the air was crisp and leaves were falling, I sat in my backyard and just looked at the trees and sky for half an hour with my dog at my side. It's the best medicine. I also clean my own office and have achieved the minimalist practice.
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Reality Bites
11/5/2019 05:52:42 am
Business Insider just posted an article about how 50% of Millennials are not seeking medical or dental care due to cost. It detailed their poor-paying jobs and inability to save as a result of the 2008-9 recession. They did not mention Gen Z, as they are still young, but I wouldn't hold out hope that things will be better for them - likely worse. This really tells you all you need to know about the current, and future, state of affairs. The only patients who can afford treatment are Boomers and Gen X and, as we all know, they have also become cautious.
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Danster
11/5/2019 06:09:22 am
I am thinking the "grass is always greener" concept is very rarely accurate.
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Drill Fill and Bill
11/5/2019 06:33:06 am
I appreciate the responses and advice given here. Everybody who posts here has a unique situation and a varying level of toleration. I have a legitimate disability that adds to my daily anger, frustration and depression that this profession brings to me. I am fortunate to have a good policy that will pay about half of my yearly income tax free. The other half will come from whatever work I can get. Be it in the dental profession as a consultant, sales, claims administrator, or even stocking shelves at the local Trader Joe’s or teaching what ever. Dentistry is a horrid profession that is poisonous to my soul and I will no longer be living a life of daily misery. My life is too valuable to me to fear each day. Life is meant to have meaning and purpose. Right now it doesn’t have either. Dentistry is a horrid profession and it’s future gets darker with each passing day. Good luck everyone
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Beaten to a Pulp
11/5/2019 07:06:33 am
I wish you the best. Forgive me if I am overstepping my boundaries, but I feel a breath of excitement and freedom when I think about what you are doing. I wish I could. Dentistry does do one thing, it makes you want to live as a minimalist in any way, shape or form to know that you can get out of the profession completely. Material possessions become meaningless when you just ache for the pleasure of peace and quiet without worrying about being called at any point in time to contend with an emergency situation or business responsibility. All you need is enough to get by. Only in this profession do be leave beaten, a mere shadow of what we once were or thought we would be - if we are lucky enough to leave...
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Teeth92
11/5/2019 07:37:56 am
So many great comments. I think for some of us older folks , the current dental situation is untenable. I remember a pt of mine who owned a shoe store for 30 years and he ended up closing it because he said instead of people wanting to buy 1 or 2 high quality shoes most wanted a bunch of cheap shoes like shoe chains sell. To me dentistry is undergoing a similar transformation. I remember when pts wanted a quality relationship and quality tx with their dentist and they expected to pay something. Now dental chains promote their brand not the dentists.
xyz
11/10/2019 07:54:24 am
DF&B - I would like to share my story with you - it is very similar and very personal. Perhaps it can help you in some way. I set up a temporary email account - [email protected] - connect with me there.
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Danster
11/5/2019 07:08:17 am
DFB, we understand. Don't blame you a bit. With your disability and the good policy, I think I might find something completely away from dentistry. Recon working in the dental field might haunt you? Hard to say, as we all have unique situations.
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Danster
11/5/2019 07:20:28 am
I completely agree with B to a Pulp. Dittos.
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Tony
11/5/2019 09:29:04 am
I think we're all figuring out that small, personal, minimal practices are the way to go. I've got three staff and I don't have a desire to grow anymore. This practice model is okay. I don't own my space which is a problem because my landlord wants to redevelop this land. However my town is so strict they're been mired for 20+ years. If it gets redeveloped, I'll lose a shit-town of money because i'm not going to rebuild anywhere else.
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steff
11/7/2019 02:36:53 am
I really like this blog so much honesty heart felt thoughts, so I graduated in July and took up a training post after 3 months I realised what a mentally debilitating,relationship wrecking hamster wheel load of bollocks dentistry is. So I have quit, thrown in the towel. how do I feel? alive, liberated, excited, reborn, relaxed, I can sleep, I actually listen to people. I am me again
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Beaten to a Pulp
11/7/2019 04:18:23 am
You have no clue how smart and how lucky you are and how bright your future can now be. Good for you - you took the bull by the horns and regained control of your life. You basically were able to get out of the black hole before it took you in like the rest of us who now have no hope. I envy you... damn.
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Teeth92
11/7/2019 04:40:00 am
Steff, Congratuations ! Like BTP, I am envious of you too 😊. You are so smart. I still suffer a bit from the PTSD of private practice. Thankfully , my original personality has returned and I am back to the old happy me prior to starting dental school. Your future is very bright and you will not be chained to the dental chair like most dentists.
Reality Bites
11/7/2019 05:39:58 am
I subscribe to a DSO newsletter to get alerts about what's going on in corporate to get a feel of the direction in which things are going. Hot off the presses just now...Walmart announced their first Head of Dentistry. Can anyone honestly say that private practices will be around in 10 years? Oh sure, there will always be the unicorns who will service a select group of wealthy individuals, but the majority will slowly move the group and corporate practices. It is really heart-wrenching for me to witness, and live, through all of this. Everything has become so impersonal and all about greed.
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Drill Fill and Bill
11/7/2019 05:58:02 am
Mom and pop shoe stores, restaurants, pharmacies, clothing stores, book shops and grocery stores all gone by the wayside to make room for big box stores. So why not medical and dental offices. Our country has lost its personal touch. It’s intimacy. I go out of my way to look a stranger in the eye to say not only hello, but how are you doing today? I hold doors open for people. When I’m in a checkout line at the grocery store or Walmart and I see someone struggling to pay for their things I buy their things for them. I’m a firm believer in paying it forward. Hopefully good karma will come my way by doing this. The world has gone mad...and I do small things to keep me grounded and to put meaning and purpose into my life. It’s a counterbalance to the daily grind of being a miserable dentist
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Dr. C
11/7/2019 06:44:06 am
I wish whoever started this blog would give us an update on what they are now doing. Have they continued with dentistry, gotten out, what?
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Tony
11/7/2019 07:46:30 am
Update. My wife got a decent job with benefits. Now I have some breathing room! It's probably not enough to pay the home bills but if I sold the practice I could work public health or clinic (3-4 days week) and have my life back. It's a thought. I'm 52. Is there ageism in dentistry? I need to seriously look at that before I do this.
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Reality Bites
11/7/2019 08:39:19 am
Tony, first of all, congrats on the good news. That will ease your burden. Unfortunately, there is definitely ageism in dentistry and, as I've said before, there are no good clinical positions available. To give you an example, I recently met with a dentist in what turned out to be a really crappy practice looking for a specialist once or twice a month. Knew as soon as I drove up that this was a definite no-go, but went in anyway just for my own edification. Turned out there were 25 (yes, you read that right) specialist vying for this garbage position.
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Tony
11/7/2019 01:01:53 pm
Reality,
Teeth92
11/7/2019 09:30:57 am
Congratulations Tony! That’s when I started in the public health clinic at 52. Several of our docs are older than I. I did not find any ageism in this particular set of clinics.
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NoName
11/10/2019 07:44:42 am
I've commented on here plenty, just change my name around once in a while. Wanted to comment on the ageism/public health thought. My spouse went through the whole process of applying and getting clearance for practicing in a public health-type position. The pay was great and benefits would come in 6 months. He worked 2 weeks and was let go because "it didn't work out". No reason given, just good-bye. He didn't fit in culturally, and they gave him little training, no assistant, equipment/procedures were out-of-date.
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Teeth92
11/10/2019 07:56:35 am
That is sad and wrong on so many levels. With the surplus of new and debt ridden grads , they probably wanted a dentist they could boss around.
Tony
11/9/2019 09:44:56 am
This is a great anonymous forum but I'd really like to connect with real people. I'd like to discuss real issues and possibly try to help one another. Would you be open to creating a closed group somewhere?
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Reality Bites
11/9/2019 11:11:32 am
Sure, I would be open to it. I don't know how to do a closed group, but if someone could organize it, I'm game.
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Giving Up
11/9/2019 11:35:57 am
Yes . I agree. Plus it will be easier to make replies. If using Facebook, we would have to create anonymous fake profiles, but it sure would be easier.
Predent
11/9/2019 03:56:50 pm
Hello all,
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Reality Bites
11/10/2019 02:50:44 am
Predent, I actually had to Google conditional acceptance because I never heard of that before. It seems you would either be trying to do a 3+4 program or have a deficient grade in a course that needs to be addressed. If it's the latter, you may have a very difficult time getting through the first two years of dental school (especially D2) which are very rigorous academically - way beyond what you experienced in college. Assuming it's not that, you have to look at your return on investment (ROI), which has been discussed to excess already, and your ability to run a business with employees (not just watching what a dentist does). That too has been discussed to excess.
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Predent
11/11/2019 01:12:54 pm
Thank you for the advice, RB. Yes, my conditional acceptance is for a 3+4 program and I have already been accepted. I realize the debt can be high, considering tuition increases yearly and living costs. But I was also thinking, would it be a lot more feasible to do this if I were to just be on IBR plan, so that my loans can be forgiven at the end of 25 years? I know there's also a tax bomb, but I figure that instead of being on a normal repayment plan, I could pay the minimum and save for that tax bomb, while affording other things (house, children, etc) during the meantime. For anybody familiar with the loaning process, do you know if this forgiveness is gauranteed at the end of 25 years, or would it be too risky to trust our government to uphold IBR and grant forgiveness after those years?
Magdalena Smith
11/10/2019 03:41:21 am
Hi everyone
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Reality Bites
11/10/2019 04:13:33 am
Magda, I'm sure we all feel badly for your predicament. I know this is a big undertaking, but you need to move back to Sweden and return to public sector dentistry and get the benefits of a socialized society. It's by far your best option. The electrician idea is silly, so forget that. Competition in dentistry is severe in all first-world countries and if it's that stable in Sweden, then you must return for the sake of your family. Your husband can find some kind of work in Sweden. He's not an invalid and he has resposibilities as a husband and father. At worst, he can get a menial job to supplement your stable, albeit low, income.
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Magda Smith
11/10/2019 04:50:13 am
Thank you for your feedback. Your answer is exactly what spins in my head 24/7. My husband declared he will never go back to Sweden. My older daughter had huge issues in school, that ended in therapy here in Australia. So going back is a dream, but maybe mostly a dream for me. His family here helps with the kids a lot.
Tony
11/11/2019 10:57:59 am
Magda,
Dave Ramsey
11/10/2019 07:02:46 am
Anybody see last week on Dave Ramsey show some recently graduated orthodontist called in, he stated he had over one million in student debt, and was making about 200-250k. Guys gonna be in the hole for a long time. I’m sure it is still tough doing ortho as well.
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Teeth92
11/10/2019 08:09:04 am
I would break under that type of financial pressure. The guy is an indentured servant competing with Smile Direct Club and general dentists doing orthodontics.
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Reality Bites
11/10/2019 01:29:19 pm
That was a story about Mike Meru that appeared in the WSJ in May 2018. Ortho in Utah who went to USC and has 1.06M debt and makes 250k working corporate. He and his family have a crazy luxurious lifestyle of adventure travelling and luxury cars. Has it plastered all over social media. Check it out. Guy desreves everything he's going to get.
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Teeth92
11/10/2019 03:29:27 pm
This is a new orthodontist from Florida that just recently called in. The thread is on Dentaltown now. This orthodontist is not living a lavish lifestyle and is trying to pay off his loans. He works corporate but also has started his own practice. He is working 6 days a week.
Reality Sucks
11/10/2019 05:41:45 pm
Ugh...can't even imagine. $1M debt becoming more common, I guess. Shouldn't have eaten before I read that.
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Dr. Survivor
11/10/2019 07:47:21 pm
I’m so glad I found this web site. I’ve read all the posts from the beginning and I want to say thank you to everyone for all the candid and honest comments. As many of you have mentioned, reading through the thread tends to be therapeutic. For many years I thought it was just me. On the other hand, I’m truly saddened to read that so many have suffered as I have.
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Reality Bites
11/11/2019 02:18:41 am
First of all, God bless you for being an ethical, caring person and finding some solace outside of work and, most importantly, having a stable family for support. Everyone on this site feels and expresses the same pain, so know that you are not alone. All I care about is doing the best I can for others and providing as much love and financial support for my daughters as I can to make their lives easier until I've left this earth. My wife and I have a good mutual support system without which I could not have made it this long. I'll bet many of you feel the way I do - that I do not belong in this world, and particularly, this period of time. I really wish all people could help and care for each other as a local, and world, community and that there wasn't so much avarice, meanness and concentration of wealth and power in the hands of so few. All the anger and civil unrest we now see around the world is a result of this extreme wealth disparity and sense of powerlessness ingrained in most of the population. It personally hurts me a great deal.
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Tony
11/11/2019 10:22:07 am
Dr Survivor, Thank you for your Service on this Veteran's day. Thanks for your 42 years too. It's nice to have you on this forum. Please chime in more often!
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Orthodontist
11/11/2019 07:54:06 am
Is being an orthodontist better than being a GP? Even if you have to take out a lot of loans?
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Tony
11/11/2019 10:18:38 am
No, being an orthodontist is not better than a GP. My good friend is an excellent orthodontist and struggles to get new patients. If you live in a populated area there is a lot of competition... including the corporates... they'll straighten your front teeth for the lowest fee - and that drives a lot of business to them.
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Mary Smith
11/11/2019 11:59:06 am
Gosh I wish I had been born pretty. But one day I'll be dead, so who cares? Can't wait!
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Charles
11/11/2019 01:32:55 pm
Seasoned dentists, are you working harder these recent years to make the same level of income compared to the past? With technological advancements (CEREC), I understand that maybe more volume is expected in modern times, but do you feel that you work much harder these days for the same pay? Or does it feel that way due to increasing competition with corp?
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Danster
11/11/2019 02:22:52 pm
My experience- closing in on the 30 year mark, is that I am making the same. Roughly. The more you run on the wheel, the more the expenses (AND STRESS). Go too slow, and the base line expenses will be there regardless, and before you know it, you are non profit. Overhead is higher. But, I have less staff.
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Danster
11/11/2019 02:57:06 pm
Another tech. point. -I like CERECs. However, with dental insurance, we need a few weeks between the crown prep/impression, and the final seating and cementing. Because it allows us to get the payment from the insurance company, and then collect the correct balance from the patient before the final crown is cemented. In my area, often, once the crown is cemented and out the door, case closed. I will never collect. Dental insurance is a scam. And knowing if and how much any of the @#$%& insurance companies will pay for a given procedure is impossible.
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Danster
11/11/2019 03:11:55 pm
Dr. Survivor,
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Tony
11/12/2019 07:12:23 am
I have the Planscan mill and scanner (E4D) When my lab bills equaled the payment I bought it. It's been 3 years. It's very cool, very accurate and I really like it (not love) People love the convenience of it; no temp, no second appointment. There is a lot of potential in it for inlays/onlays but I haven't got that going. Would I buy it again? yes.
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Danster
11/12/2019 08:23:10 am
I have a 1 appointment crown on my #3. Amazing. I was really impressed.
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Tony
11/13/2019 11:20:38 am
I bought the E4D new because I was a newbie. If I wanted an additional one I would buy it used. Just like a car it depreciates a lot when you drive off the lot. Mine was $113K with all the warranties, training, service contracts. I see them on Ebay for $30-50K That would be a great ROI. The software is decent, the accuracy is great, and the materials are EMAX, which is classic. The rest is up to the operator.. which can vary greatly.
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C
11/12/2019 09:11:11 am
Hello everyone,
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Beaten to a Pulp
11/12/2019 11:18:04 am
Good for you! Again, you are another one lucky enough to orbit but not to be pulled into the black hole of dental terror. Now what can a dentist in his mid-forties with a family to feed do at this point? ... I know... I'm past the event horizon... nothing... grin and bear it.
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dolph
11/13/2019 06:12:37 am
True. Every single one of us serfs (sorry, I meant workers) has two choices:
Reality Bites
11/15/2019 01:14:30 pm
Just found out that an oral surgeon we know, in his 60s, is closing his office, due to lack of business/referrals, and doing oral surgery for prisoners 2 days/week and working in another office 1 day/week. We have such a bright future ahead of us (sarcasm/sadness)
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Mysta
11/20/2019 02:29:06 am
Dear all,
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Beaten to a Pulp
11/20/2019 05:07:14 am
I am glad that you have the courage to come to this realization even this late in your education. Be thankful you do not have children yet, as their dependency on you and your love for them would force you to engage in this dental nightmare on a daily basis for the rest of your life. Trust me, the reason why this blog exists is because dentistry has dimmed all of our spirits and has pulled away any chance of our being able to try anything new due to the post-traumatic stress it gives you - and not to mention that the financial hole it creates - I am afraid there is no way of getting out. I think I can speak for a lot of us in that we just want to run into the woods and become hermits. Its funny and sad that running into the woods gives me a feeling of calm. So, in your case, I don't think its too late. It won't be easy, but it is truly possible. You have to grab the bull by the horns and do whatever you can to find your place, because, I am telling you, this is not going to be it...
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Overdone
11/20/2019 08:32:43 am
I am right there with you Beaten. Mysta, youre still quite young , so I would get out while you can. If you don't have lots of student loans, even better. If getting out isn't an option, then I would suggest going into the Navy and have them pay off your loans. With no kids, you and your wife can possibly live in some cool places while in the Navy. After youve done your time in the service and have loans paid, then you can evaluate whether dentistry is still worth it. I wish I would have gone into the Navy myself. If you are only in your second year of dental school, then i would just cut you losses and get out now. Go into engineering. This private practice BS is killing me daily. I want to just curl up in a ball under my desk and turn out the light when I get to the office every day.
Teeth92
11/20/2019 03:36:26 pm
Mysta, You are very fortunate to realize your feelings now rather than being in mega debt with a family and in your 40s trapped. You have a long life ahead of you and I would encourage you to discover a more humane career than dentistry.
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Giving Up
11/20/2019 09:03:27 am
I hate being a dentist. I wish I had never stepped a foot into that dental school.
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Danster
11/20/2019 03:37:17 pm
The dentist Christmas Trifecta:
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Beaten to a Pulp
11/21/2019 03:05:13 am
I love the Christmas Holiday, but damn, did you just hit the nail on the head... The bonuses, the Christmas Lunch, the Bills - and then - to add to your Trifecta - just a small addendum - remember, when you close the office? Don't forget! You're on call!! (Never know when that's going to hit you!)
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Confused
11/21/2019 07:15:42 am
Hi everyone, wow what a thread. I am a recent graduate. I wrk in public health and I have to say it is not the worst gig. However, I started really not liking dentistry in my 2nd year when I found how stressful and nit picky exams were, over one millimeter you could fail. Hated it, and the professors were mean and made you feel like an idiot if you didn’t remember every detail. I cried a lot my third and fourth years and figured it had to get better after school. I’m thankful to have a spouse that makes good money. With my income now, along with Loan repayment plan I’m under, I’m trying to pay all my debt off in 4 years. I find myself dreading work everyday, working with patients, and even when everything goes great, the treatment can fail days or weeks later. I get really sad a lot. I’m considering making a career change, just not sure what. I’m still young, and feel like this is the time to do it. I’m not sure what to do. It makes me feel like a failure, because I worked so hard for this. Figured it would get better, it would get better..... but the stress and anxiety is getting to me. I’m so confused.
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Reality Bites
11/23/2019 03:52:58 am
Wanted to report some good news. Have had a lot of patients lately express their gratitude for my compassion and honesty and have had multiple referrals from patients I've treated. It's a great feeling to help others and be appreciated for it. It doesn't change the overall environment in which we find ourselves, but it does show that if you are a good person others will recognize and appreciate it, especially with all the bad actors out there. Also, my daughter is getting married next year and we are so happy for her. As long as my daughters are happy and I can help provide them with a good life, then I can handle the rest.
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Tony
11/25/2019 08:40:20 am
RB, Good for you! This is a great week to remember what we are Thankful for! Others?
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Tony
11/30/2019 07:30:59 am
Well...either no one is thankful or no one wants to think about D$&@$x over this weekend.
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Reality Bites
11/30/2019 04:41:43 pm
Tony, I noticed that people don't post here on the weekends and, especially, a holiday weekend because they need a break from the angst. You're doing everything you can by giving of yourself, skills and knowledge. Just keep doing that day by day. That's all any of us can do. Don't change. Your trajectory is correct and you have taken the right path. It's always more difficult to take the right path but the reward to your soul is great. It will make things worse, not better, if you change course.
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Lifechanger
12/1/2019 04:44:14 pm
I had posted here 3 years ago that I had dropped out of dental school. I lost most of my friends from dental school at the time and it was really hard... I love learning and some people thought I was crazy. I just didn’t like the lab work. Even though I’m an accomplished musician, my fingers on a keyboard didn’t necessarily translate to my ability with a hand piece.
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That's great
12/3/2019 11:09:24 am
Hi Lifechanger,
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Tony
12/3/2019 07:47:04 am
Reality, Thanks for your words of encouragement.
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Reality Bites
12/3/2019 09:48:14 am
Tony, you don't want those types of patients coming through your door. They are bargain hunters who belong at Walmart. Better to scratch your ass than deal with them.
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Tony
12/10/2019 07:54:35 am
ugh, bad morning. I'm grateful for my wife, my kids, my friends, my dog, my hobbies. I'm overwhelmed by my job, my finances. How is it that I'm living paycheck to paycheck at this point in my life? This is not the life I dreamed of. On paper, my income is good but I don't see it.. I don't think the payoff will come, ever.
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Giving Up
12/10/2019 08:11:09 am
I'm so sorry that you and the rest of us have been corralled into the worst profession in the world. Bankruptcy is my only next option. I will hold my head up high knowing that I've done the best I can do. We live a nightmare that just seems to never end. The problem is there are too many dental schools, too many students, too much 3rd party interference. I don't see any return to the good old days of dentistry like back before 2010 (even before then). It's a very suppressive career that kills the vigor and the spirit of a person.
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Overdone
12/10/2019 09:50:07 am
Tony, I'm right there with you man. Noone appreciates good work and honesty any more. They all are looking for a deal or what insurance pays for. Dentistry is gone down the shithole and isn't coming back. You're not the only one living paycheck to paycheck. I never would have dreaming in a million years that I would be worried shitless every month if I am going to be able to cover expenses and actually be able to bring home some money. No Christmas bonus for me, but of course my employees will be expecting their's . If I were older I would just hang it up and live well, well below my means , but I've got 30 more years in this horrible profession. The thought of having to do this makes me want to vomit.
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Reality Bites
12/11/2019 10:25:24 am
After all the pain and suffering that has been posted here for almost 6 years, I have to ask any recent grads, dental students or pre-dents who are reading this...What were/are you thinking? Or are you thinking at all? Sorry if that's too harsh for you, but many of you were raised without placing value on critical thinking or that you were told you're so special. When I was 21 and still wet-behind-the-ears, as all young people are (especially young men), I was still not naive enough to be sold a bill of goods of such monstrous preportions with a bleak future. I went to my state dental school even though I got into Penn and NYU because I wasn't stupid enough to waste all that money becoming a dentist. That's right, children, you are just dentists - like any other trade. You're not a brain surgeon or astrophysicist. You're there to fix teeth, like a plumber fixes pipes or an electrician wires your house. At least then, state school was inexpensive and dentists were still doing well. Those who wasted money on "prestigious" schools got away with it because most dentists were doing fine and the tuition, while expensive, was not onerous. You could also buy a decent practice or start your own, confident that you would make a good living.
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dolph
12/21/2019 02:09:49 am
They basically have no clue, just like we didn't.
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Reality Sucks
12/14/2019 03:40:00 am
Just read a post online from a senior in high school who was so excited because he was accepted into the NYU 7-year BS/DDS program and the responses were so effusive saying how wonderful it is. Doing a ballpark computation of what this will cost him (loan interest and 5% annual tuition increases) by the time he graduates in 2027, he will owe about $1,000,000. Yet year after year, all of these schools continue to be flooded with applications. Is it no wonder that aggressive, unnecessary treatment is epidemic? That GPs are doing procedures way above their capabilities in order not to refer to specialists and keep all the money in-house? It's harmful to the public and our profession.
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Reality Bites
12/14/2019 03:47:28 am
Oops...Reality Bites!! Freudian slip ;)
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Teeth92
12/14/2019 09:13:05 am
Reality Bites offers great advice about keeping a small staff and running a lean practice. I hope all younger dentists heed his advice. Dental salesman will constantly try to sell you more than you need and tell you that you have to have the gadgets. I owned for over 20 years. Patients just want a clean office with friendly staff. I hate seeing young dentists get into all these recurring monthly payments for Cerecs and 3D xrays etc. Keep it simple so you don’t become an indentured servant. There are too many dentists and too many patients that don’t want to pay anything for dentistry. Also pts don’t come in every year. And some move or change dentists. More staff, more problems.
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Dr. C
12/15/2019 04:04:25 pm
I've trimmed the fat this year and things have never been better. Of course, I'm a little bit more busy doing non-dental things that other (unnecessary) staff did, but it so much easier overall. No drama, smaller payroll, and only employees who actually want to work.
Reality Bites
12/16/2019 09:20:52 am
Good for you, Dr. C. It's been over 4 years since I divested myself of my toxic, and most expensive, employee and the office environment has been so much better since. My gross and net income immediately went up 10% after several years of decline, due to her. I now have only 1 employee during the week and 1 on Saturdays. When one is out (which is infrequent) the other fills in. My practice is completely fat-free. I've had literally nothing left to cut in over 4 years. We can't control the downward trend of the field, but we can certainly control our own little fiefdoms.
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Danster
12/16/2019 01:11:57 pm
Inspirational comments Colleagues!. Completely agree. Less is more. Trim every ounce of fat off you can like a marathon runner. Staff is number 1-- Cost and STRESS.
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Reality Bites
12/22/2019 03:49:37 am
Had a nice day at the office yesterday followed by a very nice Christmas party at our dance studio last night. Looking forward to going away for a few days and won't think about the office. By working for ourselves we can do these things without asking the boss for time off and always worrying about getting fired or laid off. There's a price to pay for this, as we have all deeply expressed, but in the end it's worth it. As self-employed individuals, we have the power to determine that price and should each say "I'm not going to pay that much anymore." Slash the price by ridding yourself of employees, patients, insurance plans, etc. that are costing you way too much both mentally and physically. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing and make a resolution to simplify and detoxify your practice, your life and yourself for 2020. Make a resolution to leave the office behind mentally when you leave the office each day physically.
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Rosin Bag
12/23/2019 06:08:41 pm
Reality Bites, thank you for your comments of warmth and optimism. Your voice of reason is well appreciated on this thread. Also thank you and everyone else for being vulnerable and sharing your thoughts.
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Reality Bites
12/26/2019 04:36:39 am
Thank you for telling us about "As a man thinketh". I never heard of it before. I'm listening to the audiobook on Youtube this morning before my first patient and it's really inspirational. Good karma is sure to come to you for helping needy families. You're a good person.
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Tony
12/24/2019 08:37:19 am
You guys are great! I love the warmth and fellowship of this group! Life is good. We are lucky to be healthy, have friends and family, and all the things we take for granted. I am mulling over 2020. I don't have a course of action or plan yet, but I will. I need to make change and it all begins with me. I drink too much, eat to much, and have fallen off the exercise wagon. I'm looking for my "thing" for 2020 and I'll find it. I also vote to share more positive things on this forum in the coming year. I will do my best. Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Festivas. Talk to you next year!
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Confused & Looking for Help
1/1/2020 12:33:37 am
Happy New Year all!
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Reality Bites
1/1/2020 12:32:07 pm
C&LH - Thank you for throwing us a softball to begin the New Year! This is an easy one. Without question, you should join your family's physio practice (I assume that you're already a physical therapist). You can secure a good income with a ready-made, less-stressful, family-owned business with job security. Why would you risk that to take on extreme debt with more limited job prospects acquired through a very stressful 4 years of education for the possibility of earning more? Why would you risk working in a low-stress profession to suffer in an extremely stressful one? Why would you risk throwing away 4 years of good income by going to school for 4 years? You don't have to love your profession, but you're definitely not that into dentistry, anyway. In this case, more money (and that's only possibly more money) does not equal more happiness.
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Reality Bites
1/1/2020 12:37:12 pm
Sorry, I meant $600-800k POST-TAX (emphasis!) dollars
Confused & Looking for Help
1/3/2020 12:03:30 am
Reality Bites - Thank you so much for your reply. It is definitely a wake up call and your numbers make sense. You could even bump up the cost to buy an established practice to $900k-1m+ based on what I have seen. Financially, I understand what you are saying, that dentistry may not be the best investment.
Confused & Looking for Help
1/3/2020 12:09:27 am
I forgot to mention that I'd actually still have 2 years and $45k more in tuition before I would be able to join my family's practice.
Giving Up
1/1/2020 01:00:29 pm
R.B. is exactly right. Knowing what we've been through over the past many years, I find nothing rewarding in being a dentist. The IRS is 40% of your problems. In short, Do Not Become A Dentist. Take our advice, heed our warnings. Run!
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Confused & Looking for Help
1/3/2020 12:08:26 am
Thanks for your reply and warning Giving Up. Is the career as miserable as you say? Specifically, what aspects do you not find rewarding or unhappy? What career would you have gone into instead or recommend?
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Reality Bites
1/3/2020 05:38:25 am
2 years and $45k tuition is nothing to have secure, low-stress employment waiting for you in a practice you will eventually own. 4 years and $300k+ tuition and an additional $300-500k to get your own practice in a high-stress, deteriorating field is just plain stupid. Plus, your family probably has very few employees. You should feel very blessed to be in your situation.
Teeth92
1/3/2020 06:53:19 am
Reality Bites offers sound and good advice. Dentistry is such a huge and long commitment. I graduated in ‘92 and I was lucky as there was plenty of dentistry to do and most patients didn’t have any dental insurance or they had indemnity plans. To earn >250 k in general dentistry , you have to work the business all the time. You have to be available to your pts 24/7. And once you decide to own , you better like it a lot because that is where all of your life energy will go. After 24 years of owning I sold. But I had been very conservative. I still work 1-2 days a week but I feel freed. You will earn every penny you make. Btw my father was a master electrician who made 6 figures and had Cadillac benefits. I went with him on jobs but as a female I felt I didn’t have the stamina and strength to do high voltage transmission work and repair. But my dad and mom’s net worth is higher than the average dentist. Just some things to consider.
Confused & Looking for Help
1/3/2020 10:40:29 pm
RB & Teeth92 - Thanks for both your replies.I am taking this all to heart. I think I will take all your advice but I am really thinking this over hard before I give up the pursuit of a dentistry career. So my romanticized version of what the lifestyle of a dentist entails is entirely off then?
Teeth92
1/4/2020 06:07:03 am
Confused and Looking for Help,
Giving Up
1/3/2020 08:13:59 am
It seems that we have some college students that don't won't to listen. This is why I believe that before anyone can begin predentistry they must take the dentist challenge. They should be told to have at least 30 family members, friends, acquaintances, class mates agree to allow them to stick them in the palate with a needle 5 times, twice a month. The participants must pay you $50 each time. I guarantee you they will all abandon you. I also bet you they were encouraging you to go to dental school. They expected you to marry their daughter because the parents think you're going to be rich. The friends wanted free lifetime dentistry. They all were buddy-buddy to you. This is boot camp of dentistry that should be done within the first year of pre-dent.
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Reality Bites
1/4/2020 08:55:34 am
C & LH,
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Confused & Looking for Help
1/4/2020 11:33:31 pm
Thank you all. I really appreciate the information you are providing and the time you are taking to write me back. Is most of your day the typical "drill & fill" sort of dentistry? Or is it possible to fill the day with the "fluffy" dentistry such as cosmetic, aesthetic, orthodontic cases where you are helping to change a patients smile? What about things like botox injections etc? The scope of practice is quite intriguing.
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Dr. C
1/6/2020 03:34:10 pm
C and L for H, cosmetic dentistry isn't all it's cracked up to be. In the first place, there is a lot of competition because, as you said, it seems like a lucrative idea.
Dr. C
1/6/2020 04:15:11 pm
I forgot to add one very important thing. Your cosmetic patients will come in with crap insurance, but want the best service. They want champagne dentistry with beer insurance.
Reality Bites
1/5/2020 07:04:37 am
Unbelieveable. I have a New Year's resolution. I am no longer going to post the same warnings and advice over and over again to these pre-dents who obviously don't have any reading comprehension abilities or logical reasoning skills, and I'm being very kind with my wording. It appears to be an international phenomenon. I'm going to give all of you pre-dents with the following parting advice after which I will no longer respond to your queries:
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Teeth92
1/5/2020 08:49:42 am
RB, loved the solid advice you gave to non dentists today- thank you for a hardy chuckle this morning.
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Giving Up
1/5/2020 04:02:52 pm
I agree with RB. It is becoming exhausting trying to get it across that dentistry is a profession that needs to be avoided. I really don't have anything to add. Been there and all I got was a t-shirt. I'm so thrilled that none of my children wanted to be a dentist. After seeing how it destroyed my life, it was a no brainer. I had a fantastic practice for 20 years then all Hell broke loose. Unbearable hatred towards dentists, unbearable tax demands, constant arguing with unruly patients, insane employee demands, IRS issues, never ending debt due to equipment failure, no money for time off, expensive insurance policies, constant insurance headaches, computer crashes or holdups, patients rescheduling lengthy appointments, patients nagging about the most miniscule non-existent issues, and don't even get me started on denture patients. I hate dentistry. It's the most stressful profession that I've ever seen,,,,,,,and no one believes us.
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Fed Up
1/5/2020 05:52:06 pm
Hi RB
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Dr. C
1/6/2020 06:43:31 am
Fed Up, good for you for deciding to become an electrician. Go for it! Let us know down the road how it works out for you. In fact, check in throughout your apprenticeship to fill us in on the details. Happy New Year!
Fed Up
1/8/2020 10:17:58 pm
Dr C, Thank you and Happy New Year to you as well! Like I said, I have not found an apprenticeship yet, but are actively working on it and it is a solid goal. In the meantime I help my partner in his start up business. I will keep you guys (and gals) posted on my progress, if anything to keep the spirits up and hope alive. Take care and look after yourselves as much as it is possible.
Danster
1/6/2020 12:12:18 pm
I always wonder about the young pre dents that ask for advice, and when they get the sound advice to Run run run away, they then ask more questions as if we have not laid it our clear enough. Or, as if the answer they were given is not the answer they are looking for.......
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Reality Bites
1/6/2020 02:24:29 pm
I don't think they're trolls. I really think it's confirmation bias, as I've posted before. It applies to anything where people keep searching for answers until they find the one(s) that support their beliefs as they cannot accept that they made a mistake (or are about to). It's especially true when you're deep into something that you've put a lot of time and effort into finally realzing that it was for nothing, but live in denial by telling yourself it was all worth it.
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Danster
1/6/2020 02:38:07 pm
RB, exactly. I like the Electrician idea. Gutsy, but who does not have a small amount of jealousy?
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Tony
1/8/2020 10:54:32 am
Happy New Year Everybody! RB, I loved that lovely biography of my life! At this point, I'm only doing dentistry because I'm so passionate about it. I could retire any day I wanted to but why?
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Rosin Bag
1/11/2020 01:27:07 pm
Anyone attending the Chicago Midwinter and want to meet up for a drink or few for airing of joys and grievances?
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Reality Bites
1/12/2020 08:41:10 am
I'm not attending, but it would be great if we could all meet someday. Honestly, I avoid these meetings as much as possible just to avoid anything dental outside of the office.
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Beaten to a Pulp
1/13/2020 06:59:03 am
Boy, is that true for me too... I avoid anything dental when I am away from the office so much that on the weekend I try to close my eyes when I brush my teeth just to avoid seeing even my teeth! It reminds me too much of work! That's how sad and bad its has become for me. Oh well...
Rosin Bag
1/13/2020 06:50:15 pm
I hear you guys. It's funded for me to go otherwise I wouldn't attend either. I look at it as an opportunity to catch up with old friends.
Reality Bites
1/13/2020 08:28:01 am
Can anyone else tell me if they are feeling as down and anxious as I am? Things just don't feel right and this year has not begun well. I'm seeing a very good dentist friend of mine for lunch. We're the same age and just trying to help each other make it the next couple of years. First I thought I could make it to 70, then 68, then 65 and now I'm just trying to get to 60. Maybe it's because January always feels like I have to start all over again, but I really think it's something more.
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Giving Up
1/13/2020 08:35:15 am
I hear ya. I wonder how we would feel about dentistry if we had amnesia of our past career life and entered into it based on the current status of the profession. In other words, if we entered into it without any preconceived notions and expectations that we had going into it 25+ years ago, going into it just for the dentistry part of it. I think you would be nuts to go into it. Going into a million dollars of debt to only make $100,000 per year. I would never consider it.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/13/2020 10:29:19 am
RB: I believe what you are feeling and going through. I'm feeling it in a major way here in South Florida. Its monday, 1:20 in the afternoon and I am leaving the office for the day. No afternoon patients. My practice was sold to a DSO and they are basically running the practice into the ground. I am the senior dentist and I'm basically working for healthcare benefits and pension. If I could have foreseen that my life would turn out this way 30 years ago I would have gone in the complete opposite. direction. This profession has turned into nothing short of a nightmare.
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Beaten to a Pulp
1/13/2020 11:30:32 am
Yup, feel that way everyday - even on vacation. You never know even with the simplest of procedures whether or not something dire will happen the next day because of it. You never know if that procedure you did will fail today. You never know how patients will react. You never know if some governing body will come down on you unannounced. You never know if the next month there will be enough production to pay the bills. You never know if one of your staff will have a melt down which you need to contend with. The list goes on - and when you are in your mid 40s like me, you have the stress on top of all of that of being the provider for your family. Of course we feel down and anxious! I am glad you say it... it makes me feel a little better its not just me. If it weren't for the fact I love my wife and little girls so much, I would have checked out of this a long time ago. Become a librarian or something... sigh... downsize my life and read books and build models all day.
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Dr. C
1/13/2020 11:41:24 am
If I even drive by a dental office when I'm on vacation I avert my eyes because I get a sick feeling in my stomach.
Orthodontist
1/14/2020 07:42:39 am
I would say if you are that burnt out from being a GP try and go back to ortho residency. No needles, no nervous patients, no worry about treatment failing in a year. Sometimes the pay is more, used to be the case but with more programs there is more competition. The work is much easier and less strenuous than being a GP by a long shot. The assistants also do most of the work for you.
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Danster
1/14/2020 08:35:07 am
The art of tooth repair and general dental treatment can be stressful, and depending on the patient, can be a breeze or hell.
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Joey
1/14/2020 09:58:03 am
I'm currently a D3 set to graduate next year. I realize that many of you dislike dentistry, especially the business management side of things. Would you recommend that I try to work for corporate instead to avoid these things, despite the potential pressure to meet high quotas which could lead to poor work? Or should I try my best to get into private practice right away to pay off my debt quicker? What are average salaries I can expect working for corporate? And do any of you have experience working in one? I would love to hear about some of your experiences if so.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/14/2020 11:32:25 am
Hey Joey- I graduated in 1990 and have been at it for 30 years. Feels like a jail sentence. If I could talk to the 26 year old me I would beg and plead for him to join the military and start your career there. Don't fall into the cookie cutter pattern of life that 99% of the people do. (Myself included) I know it doesn't sound like the type of career path you envisioned but it makes complete financial sense to at at least explore that opportunity. Give them the years they ask for. You will earn a nice living while at the same time have the government pay off your loans. You will gain quality experience while at the same time you won't have the stress and pressure of meeting daily, weekly and monthly goals that these corporations force onto you. You owe it to yourself to at least look into it. Best of luck to you
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Teeth92
1/14/2020 12:29:50 pm
Hi Joey, I graduated in 1992 and I completely agree with Danster and DFB. I would join the military. There are also some civilian dentist positions within the military too. I owned for over 20 years and I got beat down. The money was good but my health suffered and patients have got more demanding. Don’t tie yourself down with practice debt.
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Reality Bites
1/14/2020 04:14:14 pm
Joey,
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Rosin Bag
1/15/2020 12:57:59 am
Joey, definitely head the advice of those here with many years of experience. I'm closer to you in age and lack that accrued experience but here's my two cents. I Graduated in 2015 and did the HPSP (Health Professions Scholarship Program) with the military. I did the three year which I applied for first year of dental school. There is also a four year which you apply for in undergrad. They paid for three years of my school with monthly stipend for living expenses etc. Then I owed back the three years plus a residency year that didn't count towards the pay back. With the cheaper living expenses, having roommates, and living frugally where I went to dental school, I was able to pay off my first year loans before graduating dental school so I started out in the black right out of school. Five years later I'm planning on doing one more 2-3 year tour then getting out. Without having to pay off debt I've been able to save a ton and plan on doing dentistry one to two days max and farming primarily. Dentistry is a wrecking ball mentally and physically. One could also say financially to a certain extent.
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Danster
1/14/2020 11:40:23 am
I agree completely with Drill and Fill Bill. And I finished about the same time he did. Its just alot more difficult in todays world to run any small business. And corporate dentistry has a burn out rate of 2 years. Its just not worth it.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/15/2020 06:09:21 am
Rosin Bag- excellent advice. Things were different for me when I graduated in 1990 and the world is completely different. If I remember correctly tuition was about $12k-15k a year back then so we didn't have the insane loans coming out of school that we see today. If you look at dental school merely as an investment paying $80k a year tuition for 4 years makes very little sense. The return on that investment just isn't there. And don't let people tell you differently. You will be dragging that ball and chain loan payment with you everywhere you go for 20 years and it will most certainly destroy you. Military is the way to go coming out of school.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/15/2020 08:00:47 am
Good morning all...I read a quote last night that I had to reread about 10 times because it summed up my daily struggle perfectly.
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Reality Bites
1/15/2020 12:49:58 pm
DFB
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Danster
1/15/2020 01:05:41 pm
What about the people that seem to glide along with all the nice toys and great vacations, and all american kids- what about the dentists at the meetings that act like they have it all figured out and their career is going great? BS! and I avoid those types, and like someone said, I do not attend the big meetings. I have found that there are skeletons in every closet. Sadness, problems, heartache,etc. is in everyone's life. Our job just happens to be high on the stress scale. But, many other jobs could be much worse, don't you think?.....And family and friends do not want to hear it nor do they get it. That is why an inner circle like this blog a safe place to vent. We are sympathetic.
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Reality Bites
1/15/2020 03:00:01 pm
That's why I stay away from the big meetings - lots of bluster from BS artists. I also get a kick out of them going through the exhibition area intently looking at all the expensive new gadgets and questioning the salespeople like they're some super stud just to try to impress them. And, of course, the CE courses where some hot shot just shows off perfect cases just to make us feel like we're nothing.
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Reality Bites
1/15/2020 03:21:19 pm
I'm posting too much today, but I thought everyone would appreciate some words of wisdom from one of my clinical professors in dental school. The old-timer was a man of erudition and eloquence. All he did was hang out in radiology/screening and didn't do much of anything except to impart his pearls of knowledge to us, which we eagerly absorbed. One day, he made the most profound statement I ever heard during my four years of suck there, and it has molded my philosophy to this day. It was:
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Fed Up
1/15/2020 04:31:02 pm
RB, I love this one. Thank you : )
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Transitioning
3/21/2020 12:30:05 am
I am a dentist who is now in medical school. The only time teeth were referenced in the curriculum is to say that 'there are 32'.
Joey
1/16/2020 09:29:37 am
Thank you for the suggestion to go military. However, as a D3 I feel like my opportunities are more limited than if I had considered it earlier in my career (since I obviously won't be able to qualify for HPSP anymore). Did any of you work in public health before? I've heard good things about FQHC, but I've also heard pay is amongst the lowest, despite the fact that many have PSLF programs and have good benefits/vacation. Any thoughts??
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Reality Bites
1/17/2020 08:08:59 am
I know of one resident last year who got a job at a federal clinic (not a government job, unfortunately) paying $120k, but no pension or benefits because it was not a government position. I still thought that was a good deal. He planned on working it for a few years and then going private. I told him to make a career out of that job, if possible, and forget private. He went to state school and had about $250k debt. If your debt is about the same and you can get that kind of salary, I would take it.
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MAD Dog
1/18/2020 10:02:23 am
Hi....
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Teeth92
1/18/2020 10:20:15 am
Agree with Mad Dog, I have a close dentist friend that had a prison job for the state and completely retired with a pension and health care benefits at 56 years old. Worked 4 days a week 8-5 and told me that the prisoners appreciated the care. Most private practitioners cannot get totally out of dentistry at 56yo.
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MAD DOG
1/18/2020 10:57:28 am
I left private practice after 24 years for prison system, I started as a contractor with Dr. Smallwood on my day off liked it full time came up took it walked away from private practice.....I had 2 hygenist practice 36 patients a day down to 7 to 9..appreciative patients..I get paid 140000...21 days off sick and vacation they pay you for cont ed.pay you to go....its not all a gimme....but hell it's a change and kind of fun.....I truly hope this helps
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Mad Dog
1/18/2020 11:13:00 am
Finally.....working as contractor go break pay 75 to 90 an hour can do it on day off or work 4 day at office...can leave bullshit behind for day.....I travel and stayed overnight at nice hotel....its nice to get some of those 100000 of thousands of tax money you paid.....good luck and look into it
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/20/2020 07:21:44 am
Another Monday morning and I curse myself for making the decision to be a dentist. The dread of the coming week weighs on my shoulders like a prisoner carrying a ball and chain. So sad that this is my life
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Teeth92
1/20/2020 07:39:27 am
DFB, I did the same thing for 24 years of ownership. Sunday nights were awful. I was fortunate to be able to become a part time 2 day a week employee . There is a light at the end of the tunnel.
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Beaten to a Pulp
1/21/2020 03:51:37 am
I feel that Sundays are worse than Mondays. The anxiety is suffocating. The anticipation of the bullshit that you know will hit the fan the next day is what kills me the most. I truly hate it. What makes it worse is that no one understands, except for another dentist in the same position, how bad it feels.
Dentistry No more
10/7/2020 12:50:09 pm
I am so glad to see this thread. I feel exactly the same. Ask myself why did I choose this profession! I have been looking at options to leave this profession, very close to say goodbye to it all.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/21/2020 06:17:54 am
I feel the same way Beaten to a Pulp...nobody understands except other dentists. My wife doesnt even understand what I actually go thru on a daily basis. The aggrivation. The anxiety. The pressure. The non stop confrontation. She is sympathetic towards how I feel but she doesn't get it. Venting here is somewhat therapeutic for me but I would really like to talk with other dentists who feel what I feel and not give my any bullshit about how good they are doing. Just tell it like it is. It sucks man. It really sucks
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Reality Bites
1/21/2020 04:11:52 pm
I recently found a series of Youtube videos by Douglas Bloch that are helpful for depression and anxiety. Just Google Douglas Bloch Youtube and watch some of them. There are lots of them and they are really good.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/21/2020 06:26:49 pm
Thank you RB...I'll start watching and hopefully the videos will help me. At this point I'm willing to do anything
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Danster
1/22/2020 11:07:00 am
RB, I have just watched a couple of the videos by Douglas Bloch, and find them very good! Anything that will improve mental health is welcomed.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/22/2020 12:34:12 pm
There are dozens of Douglas Bloch videos on YouTube... any suggestions as to where to start?
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Reality Bites
1/22/2020 01:19:48 pm
DFB, I watched a bunch of his videos and re-watched some, too. I just went from one to another in no order. You don't have to start with any particular one. The beauty is they are all 5-7 minutes of very insightful advice from someone who understands all too well, having gone through his own personal hell. My wife also recommended meditation, which I've begun doing. Try guided meditation for depression on YouTube. 10-20 minutes is a good range. I do it in the evening now. There are a few that I like in particular that I replay.
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Giving Up
1/22/2020 04:07:17 pm
One will never know how wonderful and awesome life can be until you become a dentist.......then it's too late.
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Drill Fill and Bill
1/22/2020 05:58:07 pm
Giving Up...That might be one of the saddest things I've ever read. And it's so true.
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Giving Up
1/24/2020 09:18:55 am
I hate dentistry X 10 to the 50th power. I never needed to use differential equations until now. Until science figures out a practical way to turn the damn brain off so we dentists can do the simplest things, I'll hate being a dentist. It's a shame chloroform couldn't have worked out. No fussing, no arguing, no acting like an ignotard in the dental chair, just restore the teeth, get paid and go home for the day. Geez I hate ridiculous behavior over nothing.
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Reality Bites
1/24/2020 02:01:48 pm
It's not just us. A lot of people are upset and disconnected. We are becoming more and more isolated with no mutual support that we once had in the past when we had real communities. We've lost religion and that used to provide some solace and comfort. Many people think they will find happiness in attaining material wealth, but they won't. I recently read that there is a higher incidence of depression among Millenials and Gen Z because of the social isolation and social media portraying everyone as having a better life than you. That's the root cause of everything that we and our patients are experiencing. Many people are unhappy and dissatisfied. I just keep treating people as well as I can and am keeping my little corner of the world as sane as possible.
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Giving Up
1/25/2020 12:15:25 pm
I am solidly convinced that starting at the age of 18 if I had done exactly the total opposite of what I did since then, I would be the most successful person in my circle of life.
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Rosin Bag
1/26/2020 01:58:10 pm
Giving Up, you're exactly right. On some moments of deep thought, I fantasize about how different life would be if all the time and hard work we put into getting into and through dental school went into something we mildly enjoyed doing or even liked.
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Peace
1/27/2020 03:44:43 am
Have been following this blog for a long time. Nice to know im not the only one who feels like this, this blog is the only thing that gives me some peace as family and friends (non dentists) will never understand what i am going through, ive started practicing only recently and figured out that dentistry isnt for me since i started clinical work in university but somehow i just kept going on. But now i have reached the point where i feel like i cant continue like this and need to do something. Had enough.
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Giving Up
1/27/2020 04:08:54 am
Don't you wish dental offices worked backwards from the way they do now? What if (choose only one) hygienists, dental assistants, or front desk personnel were the owners of the practice and had to hire us dentists? Let them sign the dotted lines for practice loans. Let them pay all the supply bills, taxes, health, disability and liability insurance , retirement plans and pay the salaries (no less than $150k for the dentist). There wouldn't be but maybe 10 dental offices per major city and none in rural areas. Divorce rate of these women would skyrocket. Depression and suicidal rates would go up. They wouldn't make it 6 months and bankruptcy would be out of hand. Dental supply companies and labs would be forced to shut down.
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Teeth92
1/27/2020 05:05:33 am
Yep Giving Up. I agree. Staff have no clue. And dental staff are some of the highest paid staff in any medical field but they always want more. And interestingly enough , younger dentists don’t want all the responsibility and liability either. It seems that in the future dentists will be employees making slightly more than hygienists. Dentists will be on level with retail pharmacists.
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??
1/31/2020 02:09:19 pm
I worked with my spouse "the dentist" for 30 yrs, then he became ill and I sold the practice as a merger and I went along to work at the buyer's office. I have been owner and now staff, and I have to say (at least from my limited experience with other practices) the staff works very hard. The pay for front office in our area can be anywhere from$15 - $22/hr and usually no benefits. You have to compensate your staff well enough, but as others have posted here, keep your staff to the bare minimum.
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Drill Fill and Bi
1/27/2020 06:41:05 am
Teeth 92 and Giving up...the example s you just stayed is the main reason why offices are being sold to large DSOs. Dentists are just worm work out from the daily grind and just sell. Corporate dentistry is here and not going anywhere. I recently read that Walmart is testing putting dental offices in there stores starting in the atlanta area. That will certainly be the beginning of the end
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Danster
1/27/2020 01:38:33 pm
I walked up front today at lunch time. The lady that does the front desk stuff ( and what a terrible job), had a disgusted expression on her face.
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FillingSlave
1/28/2020 10:32:30 pm
Wow. Thank you to everyone for this blog - I thought I was alone, but misery loves company! I’m a (very depressed) prosthodontist and rarely do I get to do anything that I was trained to do. Mostly basic dentistry - cleanings, fillings, single crowns. The whole prosth residency thing was a scam that added another $350,000 of debt to my $250,000 from dental school and robbed me of another three years of my life. Never seem to have many prosth cases... and when a patient comes in for a 2nd opinion from another prosthodontist - they usually need about 90% less work than what the other guy recommended. I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night ripping out restorable teeth just to place a bunch of implants. And my patients that do legitimately need work can’t afford it because someone already took all their money.
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Beaten to a Pulp
1/29/2020 03:48:37 am
Yup, I play the lottery constantly. I know the odds are ridiculous, but its the only thing that gives me a little hope day to day. I need to get out of this misery. You are right, so many other things you can do, like bake cakes which can make people happy, it does not upset and and make them litigious. They also pay upfront! I feel the same way - every day a heavy weight of fear and anxiety bears on me and I can't get rid of it. It is not natural to feel like this every moment of every day. Hence, why I play the impossible odds of the lottery.
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FillingSlave
1/29/2020 05:28:55 am
I cannot STAND how people think it is okay to leave without paying. They assume that I’m rich and that I can loan them money interest free. Meanwhile, I have well over $1,000,000 in debt, don’t own a home, no kids, no friends, and endless first dates. Who wants to be with someone that hates their 6-day per week slave-job?
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Giving Up
1/29/2020 06:54:03 am
We sound exactly alike, FillingSlave. Never drive a Mercedes or BMW. Patients don't think you deserve it and they'll make you pay for it by shoplifting your services. There needs to be stiffer laws against dental patients for saying they hate the dentist , and for not paying the dentist. Any occurrence of either offense should carry a $5000 fine and one year of jail time. They are guilty of causing dentists to commit suicide and for mental anguish and bankruptcy. It's never the dentist's fault. The patients need to be severely punished for abusing dentists. I hope they put that hateful, pious, bigoted patient in the slammer.
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??
1/31/2020 02:21:23 pm
My husband's idea of a great vacation was being in a hotel room with the curtains drawn, a bottle of soda within reach, and laying in bed all day. Meanwhile, sadly, I carted the kids around seeing the sights. Sad.
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1/29/2020 06:44:41 am
Guys I am telling you go back and do orthodontics. Many 2 year pay residencies available. I have never met an unhappy orthodontist
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Dr. C
1/29/2020 11:07:42 am
Hi Orthodontistwannabe,
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Danster
1/29/2020 07:25:39 am
My opinion: Do what you can with what you have. If you can find another non dental career idea- like bakery or learning a trade, Run Forrest!
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OrthodontistWannabe
1/29/2020 12:22:53 pm
No way. There is only so much you can do with invisalign or GPs can do. Ortho should make 300k minimum, and it is a much less stressful job than GP. I have never met a poor, miserable orthodontist, but many GPs.
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Beaten to a Pulp
1/30/2020 06:19:31 am
Unfortunately, I know of 2 miserable orthodontists in my area... with stories to match. I will not overstep my boundaries and discuss them however. The other problem for most of us, is that when you are in your 40's, 50's and 60's, you will not be going "back to school" for ortho - especially when you have a family that depends on you financially. If you are young and free - well - God bless you- go for it. But it is still dentistry I caution you...
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Tony
1/30/2020 01:22:24 pm
Orthodontics is not what it used to be. A good ortho friend of mine is not having an easy time. His neighbor, a corporate general practice, cranks out 200+ invisalign cases a year for a lower fee than he can provide. I think most of the dental specialties are going to have a harder time due to traveling specialists. In my area a newish periodontist goes to a different practice every day of the week. The practices love keeping the procedures in-house, the patient's like that too. The older specialists hate because it disrupts their referral network. When I say "older" I mean 45. The times, they are a changing....
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Reality Bites
1/31/2020 05:22:57 am
Tony and Beaten are correct. As a specialist, I can confirm that it is much more difficult to maintain a private practice due to what Tony mentioned. Ortho has definitely been negatively impacted by Invisalign, 6-month smile, Smile Direct (which will now be offered through dental offices as announced last week). Young specialists, in all of the specialties, are travelling. Older specialists, like me, are hanging on. OrthodontistWannabe may be a dental student or pre-dent who has no idea of the immense challenges facing all of us today - both specialists and GPs. If I'm wrong, OW, let me know. Add in Walmart beginning to offer dental services along with Walgreens and CVS (with Smile Direct Club) and I don't see how this is going to end well. As Teeth 92 said, we will likely be the pharmacists of the future being a small cog in a corporate machine with a few outlier private/group practices continuing to function. Just like medicine. Go on the pharmacist group sites and see how they complain now about fewer jobs and lower pay. That is our future.
Giving Up
1/31/2020 03:22:02 pm
Look at GARCAPITALFX. I've been making consistent $2000 per month on stock option trading. These guys are legit.
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Giving Up
2/3/2020 05:08:00 pm
I wanted to take a moment and remind everyone how much I hate being a dentist.
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rand098
2/3/2020 05:10:40 pm
you all don't know how good you have it. You make 300K+, you work for yourself, you have a skill that won't be automated, you control your own life, you can have your spouse work in your office, you probably work 4 days a week and you get to really be great at something. try bouncing around in the corporate world with no job security, making 125K, office politics, getting booted out when you are 50 because you are "old" then come here and complain.
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Giving Up
2/3/2020 05:13:48 pm
Thanks for sharing your bullshit with us RAND. Now scram.
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Reality Bites
2/4/2020 04:20:08 am
rand098, while I definitely sympathize with your feelings, there's no need to get angry at us especially as your assumptions do not apply to today's situation. Corporations have ruined much of what used to be good about this country - appreciation and fair treatment of employees and job security. This has affected all of us in every field. and society, in general. What you said about dentists in general applied to many of those who graduated 40-50 years ago, but certainly not now. Please see my response to Tom below. It's a very sad state of affairs now for us all.
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rand098
2/3/2020 05:12:15 pm
and don't cry me a river about how much school costs and it took 4 years, drop in the bucket for the life benefits.
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dolph
2/4/2020 04:07:03 am
I see the serfs are coming out and attacking each other.
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Reality Bites
2/4/2020 04:37:21 am
That's what the wealthy and powerful have done throughout history. Have the little people at each others throats while they take all the wealth. Divide based on race and socioeconomic groups.
Teeth92
2/4/2020 05:41:21 am
Dolph is exactly right about the serfs attacking each other. Several years ago teachers were being attacked for their “lavish” pensions. Then police officers were attacked. Now physicians and dentists are attacked for the “life of luxury “. The reality is that most politicians on both sides of the aisle support and pass laws that benefit the extremely wealthy. And there are fewer scraps left over for the highly educated professions who have loads of school debt and other debts that seem insurmountable.
Giving Up
2/3/2020 05:22:40 pm
Hey rand098, if ignorance and stupidity were painful, you would need to be hooked up to a morphine pump. It's insignificant deplorable and arrogant cretins like you that dentists hate and never want to treat.
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dolph
2/4/2020 04:09:45 am
But Bezos, Gates, Musk, Buffet are the heroic, perfect leaders of America who deserve their billions, correct?
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Tom
2/3/2020 06:03:36 pm
I don't mean to interject, but doesn't randy have a point here? Although the debt can be on average 300-350k now, isn't that fairly insignificant considering the income you'll make over your entire career as a dentist? Hey Randy, I'm currently waiting for decisions to come back after having applied this cycle. If you're a recently graduated dentist, do you feel that the job market is mostly corporate for young dentists now with low job security? With it being increasingly harder to loan for ownership and compete against the buying power of DSO, I sometimes wonder if this profession is worth the squeeze. Any thoughts are welcome
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Reality Bites
2/4/2020 04:09:59 am
Tom,
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FillingSlave
2/3/2020 08:25:51 pm
I think one thing that is overlooked when talking about debt are the interest rates.
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Beaten to a Pulp
2/4/2020 03:34:26 am
Just a small addition to your last statement with female dentists having to only take off a week after giving birth, which I know 3 personally who did the same - when any of us get sick - unless you are completed incapacitated, there is no way you can take a sick day from work without losing tons of money that is needed just to run your daily operations, not to mention how patients get annoyed about having to reschedule. It is another reason why our anxiety levels are so high - you truly can't afford to get sick. One more thing to worry about.
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Teeth92
2/4/2020 05:57:12 am
Anecdotally, my female classmates mostly have no children or one child. We older dentists bought or started practices shortly after graduating dental school. I have 1 child but with school loans , a house loan and practice loans , I did not have the funds to have another child due to my overhead. With younger dentists being employees, female dentists may be able to have children easier but they will have no professional autonomy and much lower pay.
dolph
2/4/2020 04:20:11 am
My purpose here is to remind you guys that it's not just dentistry. There are larger socioeconomic forces at work. Perhaps it's too much to take, given how horrible dentistry is. You'd rather not think too much about the world, because that, on top of dentistry, might drive you insane.
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Reality Bites
2/4/2020 04:24:39 am
Well said and 100% correct.
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Hopeless
2/4/2020 07:02:46 pm
I am so glad I found this blog today. Nobody seems to understand how being a dentist isn't the best job ever. "Hey, US News and World report ranked dentist number 2 best job again. Why aren't you happy?" "Hey, don't you only have to work four days a week and make a load of money." "Hey, why don't you use that RICH DOCTOR MONEY and pick up the tab tonight." It just goes on and on.
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FillingSlave
2/4/2020 08:44:22 pm
You're definitely not alone! A few years ago I had an associate dentist working with me who had just graduated from dental school. She is probably one of the most talented dentists that I know. My practice isn't high volume, so she just came in 2 days a month to help me out with basic dentistry, like fillings. Her primary job was at a corporate office, which was exactly just how you described. It eats away at her because she is extremely focused on patient care and ethics - two things that don't seem to be important in those high production practices. She recently contacted me because it sounds like they are stiffing her on pay too. It's a shame that the dentists that actually care about patients get completely beat down from the profession.
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Reality Bites
2/5/2020 04:41:52 am
FS, I actually got into law school in 2018 and was going to go part-time but knew it would be a waste of money and effort to go for 4 years, pass the bar and get licensed at 61. Even had a seat deposit but changed my mind and relinquished the seat. Glad I did.
Giving Up
2/4/2020 07:20:12 pm
Thanks Hopeless for sharing your story of the horrible reality of dentistry. Idiots like rand908 have no clue what we are dealing with. Your story sounds like 85% of us dentists. Our sacrifice will never be acknowledged and understood. I hate being a dentist.
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rand098
2/4/2020 08:03:43 pm
all the dentists I know are doing VERY WELL....just 4 dentists on here are not, beaten to a pulp[, gving up, reality bites.. so 4 dentists out of 130,000 is a VERY GOOD RATIO of success
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Reality Bites
2/5/2020 04:16:07 am
I don't know who you are, but you must be a miserable person judging from your nasty comments. Who do you think you are making assumptions about people you never met and know nothing about? Typical keyboard warrior. Let's see you say that to someone's face.
??
2/7/2020 05:39:10 pm
How many dentists do you know Rand, and have they really showed your their bank balances and liabilities? And do you know if they can fall asleep at night in peace? And if you can think statistically, there's more than 4 dentists on this forum who are venting, and they are very small percent of the dentists who have happened upon this site. If every dentist in the country found this site, I think the statistics would be more than 4 in 130,000
rand098
2/4/2020 08:02:21 pm
if you moved to south carolina, and bought a practice since money and loans are flowing like cheap wine now ...you would be rich in 5 years. if your going to work for a dso like a job and woking for some "smiles" type of company than jeeze....all that then i don't know how you were smart enough to get into dental school. Don't give me that " I have a big loan for school and i need to take another loan for a practice and a house" they will give you all those loans, house you don't even need a downpayment you'll get a loan and then you work and do your thing and pay them all off OVER TIME while enjoying working for yourself and building something
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Reality Bites
2/5/2020 04:20:34 am
Got a better idea. Why don't you just go away. Got laid off at 50 from your corporate job? Poor baby. We're all crying for you.
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danster
2/5/2020 03:15:07 pm
A mandibular block is an unique phenomenon. It has to be done very carefully, and the anesthesia placed in just the right place or your dental patient is going to have pain. It's not just a shot. It is way more than that. And unless you have performed one, you have no idea and your opinion does not matter. Same for endo, crowns, fillings, and landing the space shuttle... That is why outsiders can't understand.
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Drill Fill and Bull
2/5/2020 04:45:37 pm
Inserting crowns that have to adapt to margins in tenths of millimeters. If the contacts are open 1/10 of a millimeter we have to deal with the complaining patient. Then have to give that elusive mandibular block again and redo the crown at no charge. Sometimes those contacts open due to excessive occlusal forces that is not always the fault of the dentist. Teeth being sensitive after a restoration. Partials and full dentures that trap food. Patients that can't go all the way back in the chair. (Whenever I hear that I just want to ask the patient if they sleep laying down or in a chair). Patients arguing over fees. How much complaining can one person take day in day out week after week and month after month. It's a never ending viscious cycle
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Giving Up
2/5/2020 05:19:46 pm
Drill, Fill, and Bill just said it like it is. Danster also pegged the reality. Rand is just some outsider that completely is out of touch with reality. I agree DFB, we paid $15000 for a chair to be comfortable so we work on their teeth and they belly ache. I've actually said to a patient "do you sleep at a 45 degree angle?". The absurdity detection meter pegs all the way to the right in my office numerous times a month due to ridiculous patients. Would you tell your mechanic to change the air filter without opening the hood?
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Tony
2/6/2020 03:25:40 pm
We know what a pain-in-the-ass dentistry is. Just continue to use the forum as usual. We have no choice but to let Randall chime in if he wants to. I find him entertaining.
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Reality Bites
2/6/2020 04:11:32 pm
Agree. Just don't feed the troll. Could be some loser in his Mommy's basement for all we know.
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AJ
2/7/2020 11:54:37 pm
I feel like that everyone who works in the healthcare field (whether a dr, a dentist, a surgeon, or a pharmacist) in the U.S. is not satisfied with their jobs all because patients (customers) are the ones who are always right (the most ridiculous ideology in the U.S.). This gives healthcare professionals a tremendous amount of stress to keep their patients always happy. I was a premed/predental student but after reading this blog and doing a ton of research I decided to switch my major to software engineering. I'm so glad I did that because I feel like medical/dental/pharmacy schools are total scams in the U.S. If you have noticed, they all look for research experience in their applicants. If you thanks about it you can see that they want to use students as free labor to do the research they need to get done. Why does a dr/dentist/pharmacist need to know how to do research if they wanna only get involved with primary care and not research medicine? I said all that to make my final point which is all medical/dental/pharmacy schools in America only care about your money and that is it.
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AJ
2/7/2020 11:59:49 pm
Also, I need to add if you truly care about dentistry or medicine consider going to Europe where education is almost free and healthcare professionals are respected. In the U.S., healthcare professionals are just slaves with titles who make a lot of money on Paper but in reality they don't because of a lot of side expenses such student loans and malpractice insurance.
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Reality Bites
2/8/2020 04:13:39 am
AJ - great decision about becoming a software engineer. Although there is alot of competition for jobs with H1B visa applicants, it's still far better than any of the healthcare fields, as you correctly described. This also includes veterinarians.
Transitioning
3/21/2020 12:21:18 am
Hi, just to advise I'm a European dentist and retraining as doctor. Its not entirely free in all countries, although yes in some university is free. The debt that I have incurred is still relatuvely low compared to someone with the same training in the US. However, hope everyone is aware that degrees are not transferable between all these countries and if you wish to leave or return to your home country, you either have to take expensive exams or redo the degree.
Dr. C
2/8/2020 08:44:59 am
Rand098 isn't hard to figure out. He went to his dentist and got treatment which he agreed to. He signed all the required forms, was initially happy with the work. However, because we live in a throwaway society where people buy exercise equipment and return it, etc he had buyer's remorse and wanted to "return" his treatment. Of course, you can't do that, so he's angry at his dentist, and all dentists.
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Reality Bites
2/8/2020 09:30:18 am
Ignore the a-hole. Could be a troll, loser, psychotic or all of the above. Just keep supporting each other and venting.
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Drill Fill and Bill
2/10/2020 03:10:26 pm
Three blocks. PDL injections. And infiltration with septocaine and 30 and 31 still not numb enough for crown preps. I wanted to jump out of my skin. Preparing those teeth are hard enough but without adequate anesthesia it's downright torture. For me and the patient. For the average, caring and thoughtful human being it's not natural to put someone through that. It tears at my soul. Why? Why? Why did I want to become a dentist? The answer to that question keeps me awake at night. To live in The Wonder of what might have been...
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FillingSlave
2/10/2020 06:54:34 pm
Sucks. I once did a crown on a lower molar for a patient. The first visit or two, she numbed up fine. But on the delivery appointment, could not get her numb and had to have her come back another day to try again, and on that appointment, also had trouble getting her numb. Managed to get the crown in, but she never came back to my practice ever again and I think it must have been from that. I think she must have an anatomical variation of the nerve entry point. It's nice how we get judged for that.
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Dr. C
2/11/2020 06:22:02 am
Everyone has stories like that in one form or another.
Giving Up
2/10/2020 03:39:18 pm
Was the patient RAND098? LOL.
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Reality Bites
2/10/2020 05:07:14 pm
Anyone see the ADA Morning Huddle email this morning? An article on "Suggestions to Turn Around a Failing Dental Practice"! Roger Levin says you have to sell more cases and get more new patients. Absolute genius! Why didn't I think of that??? Kind of says it all right there- where dentistry is today.
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Reality Bites
2/10/2020 05:10:24 pm
I just noticed that I was comment number 1000. Do I get a cookie?
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Dr. C
2/11/2020 06:48:41 am
Dang, RB, I wanted to be the 1000th person to comment! :)
FillingSlave
2/10/2020 07:06:59 pm
I often think about publishing a blog that includes crap like that so that patients can see what kind of stuff dentists are exposed to. But I'm sure they called it "case acceptance" rather than "selling snake oil"?
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Danster
2/11/2020 11:12:49 am
Today- Crown #19. 2 Septocaine carpules, and I aspirated. nothing.
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Giving Up
2/11/2020 11:54:50 am
The horror and anxiety of being a dentist is 2nd to none.
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Giving Up
2/11/2020 12:38:06 pm
Hi there! How was your day? Dentist replies, " I was told 5 times today that I'm hated and I had to stick a needle into people's mouths probably 30 times today , so how do you think my day went?"
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Danster
2/12/2020 08:12:37 am
A dentist/friend down the street from me, had an unhealthy lady in a chair. Hopeless prognosis for her perio teeth. Gave her about 4-5 carpules of ? might have been carbocaine 3%.
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Reality Bites
2/12/2020 05:37:42 pm
I know two specialists that this happened to (endo and perio). One of the patients died on the way to the hospital and the other 4 days after the incident. Over 30 years I've had 4 syncopes (all revived with ammonia capsules) and 1 diabetic siezure, whom I was able to quickly revive. Scary sh_t. I won't regret leaving.
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Reality Bites
2/12/2020 05:47:15 pm
Things that affect us all: The hospital where I'm on staff is gobbling up everything like the blob, and the last few days I've heard radio ads promoting their own new urgent care centers and a 24/7 hotline number that you can call to speak with a physician about any problem you may have. How can any remaining private physicians compete? The answer is - they can't. Second thing is an article I just read describing how 32% of the population is living paycheck to paycheck, including income brackets of 100-200k and 200-300k. It goes into detail about how people are making cuts in their spending including medical devices/services. And you wonder what's going wrong?
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Giving Up
2/14/2020 10:02:25 am
Let us know when you finish up that 4th canal on #14 on yourself, you ranting, insignificant troll.
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Giving Up
2/14/2020 10:28:00 am
I hate dental patients because they quickly tell me they hate me before I've done anything. I also hate them because they drive up in a new Lexus every year, yet tell me I should be ashamed of myself for trying to get an honest fair return on my education and extreme high financial risks. Dental patients are scrum and are ungrateful cretins.
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Drill Fill and Bill
2/17/2020 07:51:13 am
My anxiety level is through the roof today. It's a holiday and people are calling with emergencies left and right. And I'm down an assistant. Do all other dentists feel like this? Do other dentists feel like I do that when
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Reality Bites
2/17/2020 02:03:41 pm
DFB - we all feel like this, even the ones who won't admit it. Had a nutso day today myself. Waiting for the last patient at 5:30 EST then I'm outta here. Some chest pain myself today from stress. Things are calmer elsewhere...like Afghanistan.
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Drill Fill and Bill
2/17/2020 02:53:51 pm
Hey RB...Thx for chiming in. What a shit day. And you're right...no matter how bad we may think we have it there are people who would gladly take our places.
xyz
2/22/2020 06:01:43 am
I wonder what the rate of addiction/alcoholism is among dentists.
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Teeth92
2/22/2020 06:29:05 am
Addiction and alcoholism are higher among dentists than the general public. Look at any state dental board site and many of the disciplinary actions are for alcohol and drugs . The Rada study said that 38% of 3500 dentists surveyed were always or frequently worried or anxious . ( source Stress,burnout,anxiety and depression among dentists JADA,Vol135,June 2004)
Teeth92
2/22/2020 06:35:30 am
PDFs.semanticscholar.org Click on view PDF and you can read article. If you are an ADA member you can also view the article on ADA
Tony
2/18/2020 09:26:23 am
DF&B, The anxiety you described was my entire 2019. It was a shit year. I was looking for so many ways out but I couldn't. A pill to relieve depression, another to sleep; worry, anxiety. What a shitty way to live life! I went to a party this weekend and all my friends describe the same thing; some are dentists, some are small business owners in other fields. I offer no advice. We feel for you.
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Giving Up
2/18/2020 11:11:27 am
So many try to give us advice and tell us to just stop being a dentist and move to something else. Are they that ignorant? Do they think we can just walk away from hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt? We would've done that years ago if it were that easy.
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Teeth92
2/22/2020 06:45:12 am
Giving up, 100% agree. I was trapped for 24 years in ownership. I got “lucky” because I was FFS/cash and I was able to leave unlike many dentists. But the burden of being trapped in debt wore me out. Another pet peeve is when guidance counselors tell predent students that dentistry is family friendly. Total malarkey!!!!
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FillingSlave
2/18/2020 05:49:36 pm
I agree with Giving Up - people don't seem to realize that we can't just walk away from dentistry when you have debt. Our loans can't be discharged with bankruptcy. There is no way out other than to work like a modern day slave 7 days a week to try and escape. It feels like an ever present oppressive black cloud. The other day I saw a dude living out of his car at the grocery store and thought to myself... maybe it wouldn't be so bad after all to be homeless... free health insurance from the government...
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Beaten to a Pulp
2/19/2020 03:48:03 am
FS, every word you just wrote, I feel on a daily basis. I have looked upon other people, like the guy living out of his car, and felt hope knowing that if I could be like him, I'll probably feel better. Its so messed up, but this is how we all feel - this is a tremendously compressive, demoralizing and isolating profession. And to address the second part of your remarks - we are so attached to the financial strings of our patients, that anytime there is any conflict where someone does not show up, or someone says something even slightly negative, our world implodes. (and don't let me get started when something really bad occurs!) Every day we have to think "production, production, production". Because if you don't - ha ha! you will fail! And that is the honest truth - which is why we have such extreme anxiety. You can't feel calm or peace, even for a short while, because if you do - something will catch up and get you- and it will. And yes, my patients think my time is worthless. I have missed so many special times with my children because I cannot take time off or weekends where I have to to go in for an emergency because the patient has no flexibility. I feel like I must have done something so wrong in my last life that I am truly being punished now, but I just wish I knew what I was being punished for... I don't know anymore...
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Hopeless
2/21/2020 06:37:33 pm
I had to negotiate with my contracting company today for another short term contract. They are willing to pay a hygienist $100 an hour, but won't pay me anything near that because "experience".
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Hopeful
1/23/2023 01:17:10 pm
Hopeless, what ended up happening to you? Your story sounds heartbreaking but we are all rooting for you!
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Drill Fill and Bill
2/22/2020 09:20:49 am
Teeth 92...what is the RADA study? Where can I find it and read about it? The one thing I am thankful for is the fact that I don't have an addictive personality. I have a beer maybe once a month...and occasionally bet on sports or go to the racetrack. When I get home from work I usually hit the gym, ride my bike or take my dog on 3 mile walk in my development. That seems to relieve me from my anxiety and stress. I live in South Florida so I'm there are no excuses to stay inside all day.
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Tony
2/24/2020 09:52:15 am
Let's talk Coronavirus. We've been lucky that we haven't had a major outbreak but this pandemic will get to the US at some point. Italy is shutting down cities. When it does get here, do you think patients will want to come to their dental office for a cleaning or routine dental care? I think our industry is going to have a major disruption at some point soon. How to prepare?
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Reality Bites
2/24/2020 01:31:49 pm
Tony, there's no way to prepare. They can't even get food in Italy. Supermarkets cleaned out, as I'm sure you've heard/seen. Millions of small businesses set to go bankrupt in China - most have less than 2 months cash reserves. People may starve in Wuhan - no deliveries for weeks and nothing going on. I do not think it's overdramatic to state that many dentists will go bankrupt if it becomes like China, Italy, etc. Middle East reporting the first cases.
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Danster
2/24/2020 10:06:57 am
We are exposed to so many bugs, its amazing we can live a long life.
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Reality Bites
2/24/2020 01:34:56 pm
Read the synopsis for the book China RX. The whole world relies on China for all of our drugs - our healthcare system would shut down in 2 months without them. Plus, the drugs are adulterated with all the crap they put in. Add in a global economic shutdown from corona and we're toast.
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Reality Bites
2/25/2020 09:36:22 am
With the way coronavirus is going, we may all be getting out of dentistry sooner than we thought. That goes for all businesses. I have a very low overhead practice and adequate cash reserves but could not sustain being closed for months like they are in China, South Korea, Italy - with more to come. World is so small now, someone sneezes and we all get sick. Started stocking up on some canned goods and just received a couple hundred Amoxicillin 500 in case of shortages. Would advise you all do same. Not paranoia, just preparedness.
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Beaten to a Pulp
2/25/2020 12:24:20 pm
Unless you can survive in the wild, grow and forage food and find shelter - and if like me, be able to take care of your wife and kids at the same time... There is not much we can do. Starve? Canned goods not going to cut it for long. Now is the time I feel even more irritated when I see so many of my patients who work from home and do not rely on physically manifesting themselves into their work environments. If this happens like it could - I'll be on the street looking for handouts. I have a savings, but it won't last long, and the amount of money my practice eats up monthly - oh forget it!
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Reality Bites
2/25/2020 05:20:16 pm
The canned goods, patsa, nuts, etc are just to hold you over for a couple to three weeks in case of disruption. I'm not talking about Road Warrior scenarios.
xyz
2/26/2020 03:54:35 am
You forgot chocolate and alcohol. Just sayin'
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Reality Bites
2/26/2020 04:31:11 am
Good point. Already stocked up on both to deal with dentistry. Still trying to figure out which is worse - dentistry or virus? I vote dentistry. Anyone else?
Giving Up
2/26/2020 04:34:45 am
Dentistry is worse than the virus.
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Drill Fill and Bill
2/26/2020 06:23:24 am
Dentistry is worse that a quadriplegic elephant man with pancreatic cancer.
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Giving Up
2/26/2020 07:55:07 am
I would rather walk through Hell wearing a gas-soaked sweater than to be a dentist.
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Drill Fill and Bill
2/26/2020 10:31:37 am
Good one giving up. That gave me a little chuckle in-between my bad breath perio patient and my pain in the ass non stop complaining other patients.
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Giving Up
2/26/2020 01:57:01 pm
Complaining patients? You apparently have lowered your standards and doing a lot of dentures. I hope the moron that devised the concept of dentures is gnashing his dentures in the pits of the lake of fire. Dentures should be banned.
Tony
2/26/2020 07:59:32 am
stock up on Alcohol? Why didn't I think of that? I just have rice and beans so far. and Z-packs. and masks.
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Reality Bites
2/26/2020 09:44:43 am
Hey! I just thought of something. What if the virus shuts down the economy here and all these dentists go bankrupt, like in "Forrest Gump" when the hurricane wipes out the entire shrimp fishing fleet except for his boat and he and Lt. Dan become billionaires because they're the only game in town! All of us small owners who survive this would become "Bubba Gump Dentistry"! Total monopoly. Tell the insurance companies and a-hole patients to go screw! Well, I can dream, can't I?
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Lt. Danster
2/26/2020 01:20:44 pm
Breaking news. They have shut down part of the hospital in Ft. Walton, Fl. The virus is there. At least that is the news from people I know that live there.
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Reality Bites
2/26/2020 01:43:06 pm
DHS just said Americans should store 2 weeks of food and water. Must be reading my comments.
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Danster
2/26/2020 01:55:43 pm
I don't think this is a confirmed case. Unsure. Who knows.
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Reality Bites
2/27/2020 03:55:55 am
Seriously, between the financial stresses we face today in private practice and the probability that the coronavirus will cause at least a temporary cessation of business in general due to quarantine, or self-quarantine at home, I don't know how we survive this. My patients are definitely showing signs of financial stress (balk at even paying for an exam, let alone treatment). Add this outbreak to the mix and it's really bad. Large multi-national corporations can weather this, but not small businesses. It feels surreal.
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Tony
2/27/2020 10:44:59 am
If any of my staff get sick they go home for two weeks. If I get sick the office closes. No one gets paid.
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MAD DOG
2/27/2020 05:43:33 pm
You work way to hard for far to little.
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MAD DOG
2/28/2020 09:00:49 am
PLain old fashion insurance scam.we work harder and harder for less and less
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dolph
3/1/2020 10:36:15 pm
Gentlemen, all of the people out there who are "happy" have one of two characteristics:
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Reality Bites
3/2/2020 03:42:49 am
I agree with everything Dolph says and having philosophical discourse is great, however we have to deal with the current pressing issue that is the over-hype of the coronavirus, which is going to crater the economy and place us all in jeopardy. This is why I've always maintained a bare-bones (overhead-wise) practice. If you haven't done so already, get small fast and use this coming slow-down to pare down staff and expenses.
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Reality Bites
3/2/2020 07:45:34 am
Some good news - Governor Cuomo just had a presser telling everyone to calm down. That most people who contract it will have mild flu symptoms or nothing at all and we should concentrate on the elderly and infirm only. No kids affected. Hopefully the media and government officials will stop stoking fear.
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Giving Up
3/2/2020 05:04:51 pm
Has anyone seen the movie Contagion from 2011? It's as if the movie predicted the coronavirus. A must see movie.
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Tony
3/3/2020 07:07:56 am
RB, good post. On Saturday I went to my Sam's club to stock up on sanitizer and cold medicine. No problem. By 6pm my buddy told me that they were out of anything that could be considered prepping. Costco, Walmart, etc, were all out. On Sunday another buddy was trying to buy some food stuffs like beans, rice. All they had left were little bags.. and very few
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Reality Bites
3/3/2020 01:41:35 pm
First coronavirus, now I read an article on CNN Money about Walmart finally opening its first health center in Georgia last month. More coming online soon outside Atlanta and then going nationwide. Annual medical exam $30. Dental Exam $25. Vision exam $45. Therapy session $60. All with no insurance. Fortunately, people still want a personal touch, plus it really won't go over big in my state. Not many Walmarts here. Have fun, new grads.
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Drill Fill and Bill
3/3/2020 02:02:37 pm
Hmmmm... being a Walmart dentist has its advantages. Most of your patients will have missing teeth and periodontal disease. You'll have front row seats to the infamous Walmart fights that break out. Plus you'll get coupons for hotdogs and chips for lunch. Not a bad gig
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dolph
3/3/2020 02:37:51 pm
Just go to the gym, bro.
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Reality Bites
3/3/2020 02:46:46 pm
Wife wouldn't go for the new chick thing. Otherwise, sounds like a plan. Anyway, heading home in the Lambo after another $10,000 day.
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Tony
3/4/2020 07:37:48 am
$10,000? March can be slow...
dolph
3/6/2020 05:24:18 am
Damn that's ghetto bro. I'm heading home in my Rolls Royce limo after another $100,000 day. I reserve my Bugattis and Ferraris for the weekends.
Reality Bites
3/4/2020 08:25:43 am
Just got an e-mail from a national headhunter looking for an oral surgeon to join a 3 surgeon practice in the DC area. (I'm not an o/s, by the way). Says practice grosses $7M in 3 locations. I always wonder:
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dolph
3/6/2020 05:25:53 am
It's real. I told you guys, if you're complaining, you're poor. And if you're poor, you have two choices: try to get rich, or get out.
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Danster
3/4/2020 10:01:19 am
I have a friend that is an oral surgeon in ND. He is in a group of 4 or so, with 3 locations and I know they are into those numbers, if not higher.
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dolph
3/5/2020 07:09:42 am
Last I checked, dental insurance was for-profit private companies.
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Danster
3/5/2020 10:36:36 am
Blue Cross pays me $672 for a crown that costs me $500 (Lab bill, and overhead and 2 visits).
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dolph
3/6/2020 05:32:15 am
That's all fine and good, but then don't expect things to get better, that's all. Expect to be a serf. Trump doesn't give a care about what dental insurance is doing or not doing.
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Danster
3/6/2020 06:00:19 am
I won’t expect things to improve.
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Reality Bites
3/7/2020 03:38:37 am
Ditto everything you said. Ignore Dolph and other trolls. Disgusting comments whether in jest or not.
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Dr. C
3/7/2020 06:56:05 am
I agree. I don't like his comments either.
dolph
3/7/2020 11:31:23 am
Like I said, that's all fine and good, but you still have a choice to make.
Teeth92
3/7/2020 08:35:24 am
PPO insurance is killing us. The world needs us to take care of oral problems yet insurance companies are calling all the shots. Dentistry has to take a stand or our profession will be gone. This week Blue Cross of Montana named a new president with zero college education.
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dolph
3/7/2020 11:37:01 am
Yeah, but he's part of the club and you aren't.
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dolph
3/7/2020 11:34:25 am
You don't want me? Fine. My point is, and always shall be, the same: your problems are not individual. They are systemic, socioeconomic problems. They are POLITICAL problems.
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dolph
3/7/2020 11:41:12 am
I'll post a link to another pretty good comedian with an eye for these things, Chris Rock:
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Danster
3/7/2020 09:10:32 pm
Hmmm. Interesting. And thought provoking. System is broken and I understand.
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Reality Bites
3/8/2020 03:14:14 am
This is only my opinion and I apologize, in advance, for the long comment but it's clear to me that we have almost completed a reversion to the Lords/Serfs society of the Middle Ages where all the wealth and land is in the hands of a few and the remainder toil for a meager existence while never owning property. It's also a similar situation to what my grandparents experienced in tsarist Russia, before the revolution, where most of the people were peasants (my grandfather) with a slim class of professionals (my grandmother) separating them from the tsar and his vast wealth. Needless to say, it didn't end well. I do think that the Great American Experiment, in it's current form of unbridled capitalism, is unsustainable for these reasons and has resulted in a resentful backlash of young, indebted, hopeless youth who think Communism is the answer because they were never educated in the pain and suffering it causes. Rather, it is glorified by "educators" as a wonderful utopia. Frankly, I cannot blame them as they were sold a bill of goods about college, etc. and now find themselves debt slaves with few proper job prospects. I think we would all react the same way.
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Teeth92
3/8/2020 07:27:42 am
1000% agree with everything Reality Bites said above. Capitalism is the best economic system - it just needs some reigning in as RB mentioned. I would add Medicaid, Active Duty Medical Care and VA care to our socialized health care. About 45% of Americans already have socialized medicine and are generally happy with it. At least they know they won’t have to lose everything if they get cancer. Folks in their 20s and 30s definitely are getting screwed with education costs and healthcare costs. I’m a 54 yo dentist. I was able to own a cash based / indemnity insurance practice for 24 years and being married to a professional with great health care made it possible to get out of debt and have an earlier retirement. I understand why the younger generation is attracted to social democracy.
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Danster
3/8/2020 09:06:57 am
RB- said it perfect. I agree 1,000% also and frankly, I am operating my practice as described. Lean. Bread and butter and stay away from high expenses.
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WanttoQuit
3/12/2020 07:50:00 am
I'm thinking of quitting my dental school to pursue something that aligns more with my interests and skills. I just want to ask the people here: is there any 'rich' dentist here or dentists who live well that still think their job isn't worth it despite being able to live well or make more money than the others because of your job as a dentist?
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Beaten to a Pulp
3/12/2020 08:45:42 am
Rich dentist! HA HA HA HA!!!! Sorry... Nope, not worth it. Choose another job that I love with less money - absolutely without hesitation. Get out while you still can.
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WanttoQuit
3/12/2020 09:01:45 am
Now that's such a quick answer! May I know why do you think it's not worth it? A friend of mine decided not to quit because of this premise--that he would be able to work in a flexible schedule with low working time, yet he would still gain quite a lot of money. So he had an idea of working as a dentist for a short time (at least compared to other "full time" jobs) then get money and de-stress himself by spending that money on his hobbies and vacation.
Dr. C
3/12/2020 09:32:15 am
Wanttoquit, can you give us some idea what kind of student loans you're looking at and what part of the country you live in or want to live in?
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WanttoQuit
3/12/2020 10:03:05 am
Hi, Dr. C.
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Reality Bites
3/15/2020 10:19:21 am
The media and Democrats are criminal. They would gladly destroy our economy over a bogus virus hysteria just to regain power. I was lucky to be busy last week, but everything is shutting down and the patients, of all races, say the same thing as I do. They know something sinister is up because of the concerted effort to create panic, and subsequently, give the government control of our lives through martial law or a police state. It's so obvious. Many people are going to lose their jobs and countless small businesses will go under. We are being played.
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Giving Up
3/15/2020 10:32:04 am
This is why my username is Giving Up. I saw a year ago that something was about to give. We can't sustain providing for the lazy, selfish, self-centered, and bigoted liberals of the world. Democrats have destroyed America from within and the deleterious collateral damage is worldwide.
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dolph
3/15/2020 03:06:52 pm
Oh, but cutting taxes for the richest, handing billions to the billionaires, letting a corrupt cabal of white and jewish men at the top of society...that works, doesn't it?
dolph
3/15/2020 03:09:32 pm
I'm just laughing hilariously at the delusion here.
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Giving Up
3/15/2020 03:44:39 pm
Hey Dolph. Do the letters F.O. mean anything to you? ( A line from Smokey and the Bandit seems fitting here)
dolph
3/15/2020 03:59:59 pm
Keep on laughing. You'll see what the fuck happens. I'll seriously mess you up if I have to, don't fuck with the wrong one.
Giving Up
3/15/2020 04:07:42 pm
Go back to Hell, you cock licking, ass-sniffing, zealoted, daddy fucker. You're living proof that Indians fucked buffalo in the ass. Now run off you little insignificant pesky troll.
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Giving Up
3/15/2020 04:31:35 pm
Dolph has been reported to the FBI for his threat.
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Unbelievable
3/15/2020 07:53:26 pm
Is this how all dentists talk to each other now or just the ones who made wrong choices and want to blame everyone else. As far as I know the coronavirus is a serious health issue and dentists should not view it as a democratic hoax. If you do view it this way than please get out of the profession because you are dangerous.
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Reality Bites
3/16/2020 04:35:01 am
Unbelievable,
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Beaten to a Pulp
3/16/2020 10:10:18 am
I agrees with you 100%
Danster
3/16/2020 07:07:54 am
Giving Up, thank you. I laughed out loud at your reply to Dolph. I needed that. RB, usual great job.
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Drill Fill and Bill
3/16/2020 07:45:54 am
Good morning fellow stressed dentists. Just some food for thought...I have a friend in the banking industry who advised me to take out a HELOC loan. Interest rates are low and you use what you need to take care of essentials for you and your family. Unfortunately it looks like our country is on the same linear path of infected individuals as Italy with about a 10 day or 2 week lag behind them. Things may get worse before they get better. Tighten your belts and be stingier than ever before. Expect the worst and hope for the best. And we have this blog to offer advice or hear what works for others and to share experiences. As far as trolls go...if they are ignored they will go away. They just linger like a bad smell until they just go away.
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Unbelievable
3/16/2020 07:57:26 am
Reality Bites
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Beaten to a Pulp
3/16/2020 10:28:03 am
I guess we don't work hard enough like you do. You're probably right, who's better than you? - its amazing - we all won the lotto here, some of us fake disability and have court judgements. Hang on - I have to turn around - are you in the room with me? Because you seem to know everything about everyone! Its pretty amazing. You are so smart and successful. You know, I took out a large loan, started a practice, built out a new location, have over 3000 active patients, put a ton into retirement and take care of a family of four. Darn it though, you do it so much better! I guess you had a better wife than the rest of us right like you said? Mine stays at home with the kids and gave up her career as a scientist to be with them. What does yours do? She must be awesome. Probably basically prints money for you? I pray everyday too just like you do too! - alone to myself and with my children every night... Perhaps your faith is so great when you lay hands on a patient their teeth and pain heal instantly and they pay you without hesitation? Now I know why you are so successful! I went through quite a bit too, including the crash of 2008. The crash of 2008 is just like what is going on now, right? I mean, remember when they shut down the entire economy? All the schools were closed? Restaurants shuttered? Toilet paper gone? Food gone? Don't remember my patients cancelling like this though... But what do I know or anyone else in this blog. Boy, you sure know your stuff! Do you offer courses on how to be a successful douche bag, I mean dentist? I think I speak for the rest of us because we are all in!
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Reality Bites
3/16/2020 11:06:14 am
With you 100%, B to a P! You tell him!
Reality Bites
3/16/2020 10:53:22 am
Hey, get a load of this guy! You're so sweet. Did I hit a nerve? Anger issues? Mommy didn't give you enough love? 54 year old child, I see. Your math skills are excellent, by the way. You could run circles around my ass? Classy, and highly doubtful. You started in the red? Maybe you should pick up that financial book. No...you have it upside down...turn it over...there you go! I took over a dead practice with little income and finished comfortably in the black since Year 1. You think Giving Up is too "dangerous" to be a dentist but you're not with your pent up anger? Wow. I'll have a drink with GU any day. You can drink alone.
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Danster
3/16/2020 10:44:33 am
Text messages can be misinterpreted as they lack tone, emotion, facial expressions, gestures, body language, etc... Lets all shake hands and be friends.
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Reality Bites
3/16/2020 11:00:39 am
I'm in! But only with the you, DFB, Giving Up, B to a P, Teeth92, Tony and any other good person I forgot. But I do not agree about misinterpretation. A couple of these people have made their nastiness clear. No soup for them!
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Tony
3/16/2020 11:15:14 am
Just checking in to find ..... a totally different forum! I've never seen the comments digress to such a level. Please, take a deep breath!
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Reality Bites
3/16/2020 11:32:25 am
Tony - I agree with you that it will unfortunately be more like 2 months. Did not see patients today and am just fielding calls from patients (very few), but emergencies need to be seen. Additionally, there is the problem of timing. I feel it's better to wait until the 2 week quarantine is ordered so that everyone is quarantined at the same time, otherwise everyone is doing it at different times and would result in people getting infected - one coming out of it ok but getting infected by a person who has not yet begun. Am I wrong?
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Giving Up
3/16/2020 11:16:22 am
I just saw a commentator on Fox news saying that people shouldn't be going to the dentist for routine cleanings at this time.
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Unbelievable
3/16/2020 11:21:39 am
I am sorry guys.I wasn’t fortunate like you to have been able to attend the Mother Theresa School of Dentistry. You are so compassionate that I can feel it thru my iPad. Looks like I was the one who struck a nerve. If you are so successful than why are you so miserable. You will not change a damn thing by complaining. Just read your comment to my wife. She is laughing and so am I. I will be nice and stay off this blog so you guys can figure out the next steps for our world.
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Dr. C
3/16/2020 11:33:42 am
Unbelievable, I have 2 questions for you, and I'm not being sarcastic. These are serious questions. 1. How much money do you think you need to retire? I know it varies from person to person, but what do you think is a good number? 1 million, 1.5 million, 2? I'm asking you since you are retired. I don't want to ask a non-retired person, because they would be guessing. and
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Unbelievable
3/16/2020 12:17:09 pm
Dr C
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Drill Fill and Bill
3/16/2020 12:20:54 pm
My office was sold to a large national DSO within the past year and here are the guidlines that were put in place by corporate as of today: All patients will have their temperature taken prior sitting in the waiting room. Anything higher than 99.6 and they will have their appointment rescheduled. Only essential dental treatment will be rendered. No hygiene except for SRPs that were scheduled before today. We are cutting hours down to 10-3 M-F. All staff members will have a reduction in their hours and hence their pay. Massachusetts Dental Society has recommended that all dental offices be shut down for a 3 week period. We will most likely see this in other states as well. Enjoy the time home with family. Go hit some golf balls. Wash your car. Take a walk. Ride your bike. Read a good book. Binge Netflix. Nothing is forever and this shitty time will pass. Peace out my fellow stressed dentists. Maybe one day we can meet up and have a few beers
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Reality Bites
3/16/2020 02:10:05 pm
DFB, thanks for the info. Our state has been confusing. No definitive recommendations yet.
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Danster
3/16/2020 02:55:03 pm
I am running the office today like normal and there has not been much talk about it. I did see the Fox News segment recommending no dental visits for routine care.
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Reality Bites
3/16/2020 04:36:02 pm
Just got an ADA e-mail. Recommended that we do no elective procedures for 3 weeks. At least it sets a time frame so we don't have to guess when to return to a normal practice, except the patients will be too shell-shocked from the experience too return so quickly. I'm guessing 3 months total.
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Unbelievable
3/16/2020 10:39:18 pm
Reality Bites
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Reality Bites
3/17/2020 02:34:09 am
Unbelievable,
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Dr C
3/17/2020 06:22:33 am
Reality Bites, I used to volunteer at a local animal shelter too, until I came into conflict with the shelter manager. Also, like you, I can't stand Dolph. He tries to sound so intellectual, but he has the most suburban anti-Semitism. Jew bankers, joo this and joo that. What an idiot! I once asked him if he was still in dentistry, and what he said was very telling. He said "If I told you, you wouldn't like me and tell me to go away." God only knows what he's doing now, because I sure don't want to know. I won't even respond to him anymore, even if he responds to this post.
Unbelivable
3/17/2020 08:40:38 am
Reality Bites
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Reality Bites
3/17/2020 10:26:28 am
Unbelievable,
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Danster
3/17/2020 11:19:18 am
I just got word from a dental board member that my state will be shut down tomorrow afternoon for all dental care except emergencies. And anyone that violates this rule will suffer serious consequences.
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Reality Bites
3/17/2020 11:34:44 am
Danster,
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Giving Up
3/17/2020 11:40:16 am
I would operate strictly on fee for service at this time. Patients are at our mercy now. No cash, no service! At this time, I wouldn't do price gouging but I would insist on cash only. Tough shit if you can't pay.
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Danster
3/17/2020 12:04:42 pm
Thanks RB. That is great advice. I will do what you said.
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xyz
3/17/2020 03:00:48 pm
If you are in-network you signed a legal contract to accept insurance fees and accept assignment of benefits. Unless I misunderstood you, you cannot do this (legally).
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Reality Bites
3/17/2020 03:31:16 pm
He has to accept the network fees, but is not obligated to accept assignment of benefits. The insurance company would pay the benefits directly to the dentist, if he is in network, and he would then reimburse the patient. By not accepting assignment of benefits, he avoids the possibility of the insurance not covering the procedure and then having to balance bill at a time when people are far less likely to pay their bills.
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Danster
3/17/2020 03:35:46 pm
You have a point. I guess I was thinking about a Mad Max scenario where our civilization is closed, and those who assign benefits are all at home. Which means we will get the $ sometime before 2021, maybe. And someone is in pain and wants a cash deal for service.
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Danster
3/17/2020 03:39:37 pm
Lets say the patient comes in with a toothache. They are a patient of record with PPO insurance and I am a provider.
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Reality Bites
3/17/2020 04:06:25 pm
They won't pay in that situation, but it's legal to have them pay the contracted PPO the day of the appointment.
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xyz
3/17/2020 04:30:50 pm
You have a good point, but if it helps, I think most policies are paid by the month, so I wouldn't worry too much until April 1.
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Danster
3/17/2020 06:31:29 pm
I agree with both of you.
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Reality Bites
3/18/2020 06:12:03 am
Let's keep each other up to date on our experiences as this thing progresses. Personally, I can withstand being closed for a long time but a lot of our peers cannot. The potentially extreme job losses, business failures and hardship people will face, because of government overreaction, is distressing and completely unnecessary.
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BD
3/18/2020 08:10:14 am
This is a troubling time for us and the entire world. Many will suffer from this. However, we all have to do what is recommended. The experts on this know more than what we do just like we know more about dental health than the lay person. My best patients are typically in their 60s and older and they are the most at risk. This is not a government overreaction. Does anyone think Trump would risk ruining the economy over something like this if it were not a serious threat to lives. We all need to take a step back and think of others. Our medical providers will be overwhelmed if we don’t listen to what is recommended and massive amounts of lives will be lost. Yes, the media does overhype and cries wolf but not with this situation.
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Reality Bites
3/19/2020 02:31:48 am
Got the ADA e-mail last night listing all the emergency and urgent dental care that can be done for the next several weeks. For those who did not get the e-mail they are as follows
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Reality Bites
3/19/2020 09:30:44 am
Now our state dental association sent a directive stating that it's "up to the discretion of the dentist whether they should be closed and what is/is not an emergency". Much more liberal interpretation that ADA. These organizations, including the state government and feds, are shooting from the hip and keep changing their minds each day. Doesn't help. A dentist's office just called me (forwarded office phone to my iPhone) to e-mail me radiographs. I asked if they were open and she said "well, half-days until Saturday and then we are closing for 2 weeks". I knew some of us would skirt the recommendations.
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xyz
3/19/2020 10:02:27 am
If dentists are following OSHA guidelines with regard to infection control and wearing PPE, why should they stop treating? Just limit the number of people in the reception room and keep the front areas/bathrooms wiped down.
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Reality Bites
3/19/2020 01:01:43 pm
I totally agree, but because the ADA and all state components issued directives "strongly recommending" limiting procedures to emergencies it places the dentist in a precarious legal quandary regarding standard of care. It may have to do with the amount of aerosol we produce when drilling that can spread the virus all over the place. Many medical specialties have to postpone non-critical surgeries, so we're all in the same boat. Besides, who's really coming in to see the dentist now even if you were open?
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Giving Up
3/19/2020 02:09:01 pm
I'm laughing about this whole situation. Sorry, but this mandated state of liberalism is comical. When the stock market is back at 29000 in August, we will see Trump in a landslide victory in the next election. I'm loving it.
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EP
3/19/2020 05:09:58 pm
When Obama was at the same exact point of his first term, the Dow was up 5200 points or roughly 65 percent. Trump has the Dow up 250 points or 1.3 percent. It might get back to 29000 by August but I think it will be August 2021 and Mr. Biden will be the new resident of the Whitehouse.
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Giving Up
3/19/2020 05:50:27 pm
You have the neuronal activity of a paramecium. If Biden is president, then I will definitely give up. Armageddon will be upon us.
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EP
3/19/2020 06:29:36 pm
The numbers I showed are not made up. If you want to take all the credit for the market going up then you own the blame when it goes down. Oh and after that 65 percent gain it went up another 50 percent before he left office. The Dow has to get to 49000 in the next 5 years to equal the gain that it had during Obama’s 8 years. Not bad huh?
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Danster
3/19/2020 09:01:26 pm
Poor Joe Biden has dementia.
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Reality Bites
3/20/2020 09:36:13 am
Danster, which state is that? I think the inmates have taken over the asylum.
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Danster
3/19/2020 09:13:56 pm
One thing COVID 19 does-
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EP
3/19/2020 09:55:11 pm
Bill Clinton saw the Dow go from 3500 to 10500. George Bush saw it go from 10500 to 7900. B Obama saw it go from 7900 to 19800. D Trump so far has gone from 19800 to roughly 20000. So in 27 years republican presidents have lost on the Dow while in office. You guys are all wanting to make money in stocks and the democrats are the only ones who have. The truth hurts sometimes but 27 years is a pretty good sample size. Look it up if you don’t believe me. From reading this blog it doesn’t sound like the state of dentistry has improved for many of you in the last 3 plus years either. I’m a middle of the road guy myself and have practiced under all of these mentioned presidents. I think our success depends more on what we do ourselves and some luck along the way and not who is in the Oval Office. It’s fine to bash our jobs because it can suck at times, actually a lot of the time , but don’t think any 70 year old plus guy is going to work miracles for you.
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Reality Bites
3/20/2020 04:54:42 am
EP, you are correct. Based on the facts, stock investors have done well with a Democrat President.
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Reality Bites
3/20/2020 04:45:18 am
I wish we could all pull together to get through this and not attack each other. It's only my opinion, but we are all pawns and this is complete government overreach, by both parties, to maintain and increase their power and that of the major corporations. Control of the people and decimation of small businesses so that we become completely dependent on the government and lose our independence while large corporations eliminate those pesky small businesses and monopolize all supplies and services.
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Teeth92
3/20/2020 06:44:07 am
I agree 100% with Reality Bites. I enjoyed this blog at one time due to the respectful commentary. I was amazed how dentists were being considerate toward others thoughts and opinions. These are very stressful times, but let’s be above normal internet forum behaviors where posters are coarse and mean to others. I enjoy reading different points of view .
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Teeth92
3/20/2020 06:51:16 am
RB, I am no economists but I have seen many studies that go back through 7-8 Presidents that show the stock market does better when Democrats are in control. Republican administrations are pro corporation but maybe that concentrates the wealth in the hands of fewer people. Maybe Democrats put a few measures in like being more pro union that distributes the wealth a bit better thus stimulating the economy. Maybe I’m off in my assessment, just my thoughts.
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Reality Bites
3/21/2020 12:16:44 pm
Our governor just said all non-essential businesses must be closed indefinitely starting tonight at 9:00. This is going to get ugly. How many of us will still have a practice in a month or two? How many jobs will be lost? Stock market? Surreal. Wish everyone here luck.
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Reality Bites
3/21/2020 05:22:43 pm
Just got offical word from our state board. Cannot practice, except for legitimate emergencies, until at least April 20.
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Giving Up
3/21/2020 05:38:24 pm
Does this mean we could be penalized or sued for shutting a practice down if we abandon our patients? What if not a single employee shows up for work to assist in these emergencies? Nasty is just the first word we are going to use to describe the calamity ahead of us. We are in an economic depression as of right now. Stock market will be at 7000 by May. The virus is only the domino that started the crash. These cycles repeat themselves roughly every 90 years, same is true with wars.
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EP
3/21/2020 06:43:12 pm
Giving Up
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SeptoLido
3/21/2020 09:08:27 pm
I'm in total agreement with Giving Up. I don't see us recovering from this economic burden. We really never recovered from the 2008 recession as Wall Street and Main Street ignored what causes the bubbles to pop. Greed!! The exponential debt crisis is now headed upwards so quickly that there is no way to survive this crash......at least not back to what has been a relative norm since 1930. Dentists will always be needed but small business/private practice setups are now gone forever. Only a fraction of them will make it. As far as the stock market goes, I don't really care. One big ponzi scheme.
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Wanttoquit
3/21/2020 11:20:03 pm
I feel sorry for what the world is going through because of Corona and I'm also feeling some of its negative impacts. But I feel like it has the silver lining for me. With how my dental school is closing due to corona for an indefinite time period, I get the time to rest and rethink of my decision to continue working in dentistry. With this virus, I came to realize that not everything is stable, even the dentist profession is actually not that stable...
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Reality Bites
3/22/2020 11:09:37 am
Well, let's just added $4 trillion dollars to our national debt. I know it was needed to avoid a market crash on Monday, a Great Depression 2 and to bail out the Big Boys (Corporations, hedge funds, etc.). I just don't see it translating into a return to some semblance of normalcy for the man/woman on the street. Everyone is going to be pshycologically and financially damaged from this episode when we are allowed to come out of hibernation in a month (or two or three). It's like "Groundhog Day" for us peons. If we see our shadow it means 6 more weeks of quarantine. But don't worry, the politicians, celebrities CEOs and their families will be just fine.
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EM
3/22/2020 01:18:22 pm
I agree. We should now call it “ Not being able to practice dentistry sucks too”.
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The Danster
3/22/2020 07:16:13 pm
I’m enjoying a vodka and lime, and some Doritos. I appreciate you people. My colleagues!
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Tony
3/23/2020 11:07:03 am
Danster... Well said!
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Reality Bites
3/23/2020 01:36:03 pm
Amen, except for the Doritos and vodka.
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Reality Bites
3/24/2020 04:09:06 am
I hope everyone is coping. We can only take this one day at a time and know that it will eventually end. But the economic lockdown has to end soon to avoid far worse problems than the virus could ever cause. The silver lining for me is that this episode gives me an appreciation for my practice and being self-employed, with all its hassles. My fear is that people will be too psychologically and financially traumatized to return to normal for at least the rest of this year and that they will have a different mind-set like other PTSD victims do. We will have to be both psychologists and dentists for some time to come.
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Danster
3/24/2020 11:16:36 am
Agree. I have been wondering about the re start- If we get the green light, will the random public agree that its fine to return to our offices?
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Reality Bites
3/24/2020 12:29:29 pm
Yeah, I knew the vodka/Doritos combo was a bad idea.
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Randy
3/25/2020 11:48:51 pm
Hello fellow dentists. I actually am still keeping my practice open and am trying to as long as possible during this outbreak. Is this a bad idea? I am just afraid of losing money, but I don't want to be prosecuted either.. I am a new dentist so I don't have many savings yet to hold myself over without any income
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Reality Bites
3/26/2020 06:34:25 am
Randy,
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Teeth92
3/26/2020 07:45:34 am
If your state says you can be open for emergencies or very urgent patients then since you are a new dentist trying to stay afloat , I would say go to the office with a very small staff. 1 DA who can do everything up front too. I would document very extensively. I would document I wore a N95 masks and high vacuum suction with an IsoDry. I would make sure you have a printed document with your infection control procedures given to staff and pts. I would document that your DA went to pts car and brought them in. I would only have 1 pt in office at a time. I would take temps of any pt you see. Take your temp and your DA temp. And document. Pre-op mouth rinse with hydrogen peroxide and document. Place air purifiers in the office. You can read all of these recommendations online. If your state is very restrictive and you live in a hot spot of coronavirus, I would not practice at all.
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dolph
3/26/2020 06:00:42 am
Coronavirus is a smokescreen, gentlemen. I'm not saying it isn't real, it is. Just like 9/11 was real. Just like the 2008 financial crisis was real.
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Reality Bites
3/26/2020 06:41:42 am
I don't hate you, except for those couple of vulgar posts which were uncalled for. I have always agreed with your premises and have felt that way for years now - concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few and the enslavement of the rest (lords and serfs, tsar and peasants). I've been telling people that for years now when we have philosophical discourses. Now it is blatantly apparent, at least to me, that they are using the pandemic for more aggressive consolidation of wealth and power by driving out the remaining small and medium-sized businesses.
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Teeth92
3/26/2020 07:32:29 am
Totally agree RB. I never understood why since the 80’s Milton Friedman’s have been idolized. Yes he has contributed to economics and won the Nobel Prize ,but some of his policies are draconian for workers and that includes us dentists. Unless you own a several multimillion businesses , you are a worker no matter your education. Friedman’s insistence on shareholder value at all costs even over ethics is just wrong. I really want small owners/dentists to thrive ! There are few small businesses left. We don’t have the money to get politicians to help us. Example: in some states dental offices are closed. Labeled non essential. To me , the essence of the American dream is owning a small business or being a worker in a small business where you are treated fairly and well. I know so many MDs that work for large medical entities and are treated like serfs. I’m glad to know that the bad posts were not made by Dolph. His posts were always very interesting and informative for me.
dolph
3/26/2020 06:05:13 am
By the way, that supposed "threat" posted by me on 3/15/20 wasn't real, it wasn't me. It was a troll. The posts above it were the real me. Somebody decided to post a threat using my name, which they can do here.
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Reality Bites
3/27/2020 05:33:58 am
Here's part of the end-game Rolph and I have been talking about:
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Reality Bites
3/28/2020 03:16:44 am
If you haven't seen it already, two Stanford University physicians have confirmed what many of us suspected - that the fatality rates of the virus are probably .01% (seasonal flu 0.05%) if you properly account for the number of people who are infected, not just identified, as many have few or no symptoms. They expect 20-40,000 deaths nationwide (less than the seasonal flu) and said the national quarantine may be more damaging economically, physically and mentally than the virus.
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Teeth92
3/28/2020 06:28:19 am
The ADA’s response to this coronavirus has been pathetic. I urge all member dentist to drop their memberships. I was a member for 25 years. The ADA is run by Delta Dental. Insurance companies want a bunch of cheap dental labor. With this newest manufactured crises,they will get more cheap labor. I wish I had not wasted 25 years of expensive dues.
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Reality Bites
3/28/2020 06:37:07 am
I already e-mailed them requesting an elimination of the 2021 dues for all dentist members as we are facing a dire situation. Their response was "We unerstandand and we are here for you. Have a nice day." I would not be a member except I need to be a member to maintain my board-certification. Our specialty is considering dropping the ADA membership requirement. If things completely collapse, then I will drop my board-cert and all memberships and save $2750 a year.
Reality Bites
3/28/2020 06:02:17 pm
I just want to know what all of you think...
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dolph
3/30/2020 03:23:50 pm
I got out quite awhile ago. I'm not here to brag, I'm poor and have to work, but at least I'm out.
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Reality Bites
3/30/2020 05:27:01 pm
As Brad Pitt (playing Achilles) said about death in the movie "Troy":
Giving Up
3/28/2020 06:57:42 pm
There just is no way to know at this time. I have wondered though how much more exaggerated our problems are in the mega sized practices? Do the top dogs who own those practices have to pay salaries to laid off workers? Will this somehow actually work in favor of the small practices somehow? Are the problems of this crisis more destructive to the corporate practices due to the larger scale of things? Will auxiliaries and even some of the young , non-financially obligated dentists that work in the Aspen type of practices find this as a means to escape dentistry due to another opportunity?
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EM
3/28/2020 07:32:59 pm
I would say yes to all your questions RB. I think that after this initial wave of the virus, things won’t be great but they will improve. My fear is that we get hit again in autumn at the same time that California is burning and the Atlantic coast is fighting hurricanes. A vaccine can’t come fast enough but people need dentists. I think hygienists should be nervous as most people probably will skip the annual prophy. Just be ready for more interruption in the next 12 months or so. Dentistry can come back but we need to take back our profession. All of us should try to cut out the fat in our offices and that starts with limiting our provider networks as they are a virus that we have just allowed to infect our practices.
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EM
3/28/2020 08:06:02 pm
I have no confidence in our leadership. First this was no big deal and now it is costing 2trillion plus. Some businesses were going to start opening at Easter and then a possible quarantine for 3 northeast states. Now no quarantine but “strong” travel advisory. Does anyone else feel like this guy is throwing darts at a board or is it just me? Politics is a tough subject but I sure felt safer under every other administration, Republican and Democrat.
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Reality Bites
3/29/2020 05:53:19 am
EM, you are absolutely correct. The politicians from President on down to state and local officials are just flying by the seat of their pants. It doesn't help peoples' nerves to keep abruptly changing parameters and directives every day and, sometimes, the same day. The 2T package does not in any way help small businesses or working people, just the wealthy landlords and corporations - disgusting. What business wants a loan from the government to add to their debt? Defer FICA payments until next year? You still would have to pay them. Take up to $100,000 out of your retirement account but still have to pay the tax on it (they only eliminated the 10% penalty)? What is an individual going to do with $1200 or a family with $3400? Plus, the earliest they will receive that is three weeks, well after the rent is due. Unemployment offices are overwhelmed and who wants to be unemployed for 6+ months? Estimates are that 50% of the 30 million small businesses, with a total of 60 million employees, will permanently close if this continues until June. Potentially 30 million unemployed. Beyond tragic.
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Dr B
3/29/2020 03:19:53 pm
Just when we thought Dentistry couldn't suck more enter the Wuhan Flu.
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dolph
3/30/2020 03:16:52 pm
This is a message from David Geffen, billionaire on a yacht:
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Reality Bites
3/30/2020 04:59:34 pm
Right you are, Dolph. Saw that the other day. No surprise here. The only time in human history when there was some class equality was during the first 100 years of America. Since then, we've been steadily regressing starting with the Robber Barons of the late 1800s. Except for the brief Pax Americana period following WWII, when our incredible national wealth was more widely distributed creating the great middle class, we have steadily eroded to where we are now.
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Giving Up
3/30/2020 05:21:37 pm
I keep getting ADA email updates. I just instantly delete them. I don't waste my time reading anything from them.
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Reality Bites
4/2/2020 06:20:37 pm
Please tell me I'm wrong, but I believe this is the final planned phase of losing our independence and freedoms as Americans and being enslaved under the new world order that we've heard about for so long. We can be in denial, but I think the America, and world, that we knew is coming to an end. For years, I always thought this would happen by just looking at the growing wealth inequality and abuse of power. Animal Farm. 1984. You name it. There is no other reason for the intentional destruction of businesses and jobs along with the millions of people and families that will be destroyed. Even if we are fortunate enough to make it through this, the entire social and economic landscape will be permanently altered.
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Giving Up
4/2/2020 07:06:31 pm
I have no doubt in my mind that this is the N.W.O. in process. Jade Helm project was an intentional exercise back in 2015. If it's not the deal, it's at least phase 1 of other things to come but I think there is no way, absolutely no way, our society (the whole world) will return to the norm we once knew. It's a new age now. Put your seatbelts on, it's gonna get nasty. The bubble has popped.
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SeptoLido
4/2/2020 07:15:27 pm
Giving Up, I agree with you. I've noticed that YouTube among other public websites deletes any videos/comments that elude to government takeovers or any subject matter that pertains to conspiracies. This used to not happen. Something fishy and sinister is going on. How they are coordinating this is what amazes me. I bet Facebook/Google/topix/ Microsoft/Apple and so many others have been bought.
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Giving Up
4/2/2020 07:26:57 pm
The introduction of the 5G network also just went into effect. They are watching and listening to everything you do and say even without a device on your person, and you have no way of opting out. Do research on 5G. Damn frightening. Some believe when 5G was cranked up in China in December that it in some way "turned on" the virus. EM frequencies. It's a shame this scientific energy couldn't have been directed towards a way to numb a tooth without a dental shot.
EM
4/3/2020 11:46:58 am
This blog used to be worth reading but you guys are ruining it with your conspiracy theories.
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Reality Bites
4/3/2020 01:31:17 pm
It's not really conspiracy theories. Just discussing possible reasons for this heavy-handed government response against all of us. The only dental topics at this time are how to keep our offices open and what it may look like when on the other side of this.
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Reality Bites
4/3/2020 02:29:24 pm
Sorry...it's tab32
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Giving Up
4/3/2020 08:42:32 pm
Well folks, it's been an interesting 2-3 years posting on this blog but I think it's time to sign off for good. I wish you all the best of luck in the future.
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dolph
4/3/2020 09:24:32 pm
Good riddance.
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Reality Bites
4/4/2020 11:21:20 am
I'm really sad to see people leaving this blog, especially at a time when we can try and help each other get through the worst business episode any of us has ever faced. Wish I could hear from Tony, Teeth92, Danster etc. Feel like I'm alone out here. I would hate to see this blog fade away.
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Teeth92
4/4/2020 01:50:02 pm
Reality Bites , your plan is solid to me and a good one. So glad your condo is paid up and you layed off your employees. That was the right thing to do with your employees. They will make more money than you can generate. It sounds like you have been smart all along and can weather this well due to your conservative finances. As you know I sold my private practice 4 years ago took some time off and then went to work 2 days a week for a FHQC. I’m on unemployment and enjoying the time off to help take care of both my parents who are in their 80s.
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Reality Bites
4/4/2020 04:21:58 pm
Teeth92 - Thanks, and I'm happy for you. I wish I could find a federal or state job and, believe me, I've looked for a long time but they seem impossible to find. Plus, at 58 years old (in a week and a half) I'm too old to get these jobs. They want younger people. You indeed have an enviable position and deserve it after 20 years in the trenches. Good for you!
Teeth92
4/4/2020 05:09:25 pm
Thank you Reality Bites. Have you checked out Military Contracting. I know that they hire older dentists at military bases too. In fact , the ones I know that work as contractors are all in their 50s. Also smaller prison systems hire too. For example , regional jails with low to medium security. But I really feel you can do bread and butter dentistry and keep your overhead super low. In the future we can actually use the corona excuse to do just the procedures you want to do. Maybe have a smaller office focused on cleanings. I always found most pts really want their teeth cleaned and xrayed. I always got very little opposition to doing fillings. If you can keep staff wages very low and use fewer staff , I think that type of practice could be less stressful and profitable. IMHO, staff has been paid too much for too long. This is a good time to lower their pay expectations . We are both lucky that we are old enough to get through this either way. Can you imagine how the 6k new dentists who are graduating in May feel. Or the dentists with 1M dollars in debt with an office and student loans. Plus they still have a mortgage and 2 little kids. We will be fine.
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Teeth92
4/4/2020 05:14:09 pm
RB, I also have some friends who do Locum Tenens dentistry and they are older. (60s). I don’t know how that works. But they seem to like it. Most likely at your age , 2 days a week of dentistry will be enough.
Reality Bites
4/5/2020 11:49:04 am
Thanks Teeth92. I checked out military contracting and prisons but nothing in my area. Will keep looking, though. Frankly, I'm in a really good position no matter what. Office is beautiful, small (1200 sq. ft./3 ops) modern and well-maintained. My staff payroll is astonishingly low, as is my overhead, and I could work 2 days a week in my office and still make a decent living. It's so low I can keep the doors open for the next 1 1/2 years with no income and just the money in my business account. Haven't had a home mortagage since I was 38. Had one for three years and paid it off becuase I hate debt. Bought my office condo for cash 24 years ago. Monthly maintenance fees have never increased in 24 years. My practice became much less stressful when I rid myself of my toxic receptionist 5 years ago, so it's a low stress practice.
Drill Fill and Bi
4/4/2020 06:07:31 pm
Hello Everyone...sorry I took time away from this blog. I took a break from everything actually. Twitter. News. Facebook. I am just getting over a mild case of covid 19.. I still do not have any sense of smell or taste. But physically I am back feeling 100% better.This pandemic has blindsided me and knocked me through a loop. The office that I work in in South Florida was bought out by a large DSO last year. obviously our office is now closed and everyone has been out on furlough. Job security is there but who knows when and if we will come back. And if we do we will have to start over again as if we had a scratch practice. Patients will not have the money to do elective care, and they will also think twice about coming in for a fear of their health. The DSO group is picking up our health insurance, and also giving us a very small financial stipend for the next few months. The way I see this working out for me is taking advantage of my disability policy. I have been working for the past five years with a legitimate disability. And I am contemplating just putting in a claim and ending my career. I work for a percentage of my collections and my benefits will actually be more than what I feel I can bring in when we do go back to work. I will try and supplement my disability income any way I can. I am not the type of person to sit home and do nothing. During this pandemic one day blends into the next and I'm actually losing track of what day it is. Never in my life did I ever think we would go through something like this. It's terrible on so many levels for everybody. many people have it worse than I do and I have to be thankful for what I have. I wish everybody who writes for this blog the best of everything and most importantly to your health. 🍺👊😎
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Teeth92
4/4/2020 06:17:35 pm
Hi DFB, it’s good to hear from you and I’m glad you are feeling better after having the CV. This is a great time for us to re-evaluate what is truly important to us in our lives. I know I want to spend more time traveling when this is over. I want to check in with old friends and spend more time with my daughter. I just want to be happy and for me running a dental business for over 20 years was too much physical and emotional pain. If we focus on doing more things that make us happy and express gratitude each day , we will be content and happy.
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Reality Bites
4/5/2020 11:56:42 am
DFB, glad you're getting better. Feels the same here - one day blends into another. Time of day too. You're in a good position because you don't have to worry about owning a practice during this crazy time. Weigh the benefits of continued employment, especially if you're getting good medical insurance, versus getting disability with no benefits. It may be worth it to continue working, especially to keep you active and out of the house and for the medical insurance. Either way, you have two good options.
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SeptoLido
4/4/2020 07:22:05 pm
It's good to hear from you and that you have beaten the virus. I really wish we had a better way to communicate than on this blog so that we may stay in touch for years to come.
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Drill Fill and Bill
4/4/2020 07:41:00 pm
And if I may add one more thing here...being out of the office for almost 3 weeks now confirms what I've always known and felt...that I truly HATE dentistry and I do not miss it one bit.
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SeptoLido
4/4/2020 10:20:45 pm
It's actually amplified my hatred of dentistry. Going back to work will be like going back to Hell after being in paradise. Nobody would ever want to do that. It's been awesome to wake up and spend everyday not arguing and bickering with ungrateful dental patients.
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Reality Bites
4/5/2020 11:59:50 am
Funny you should say that. I've been thinking that this early retirement thing isn't half bad! Now if they would just open the golf courses already!
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Danster
4/6/2020 09:53:09 am
Hey Friends,
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Reality Bites
4/8/2020 06:29:47 pm
Called my specialty association today. Told them what I told the ADA - that they should eliminate dues for 2021, that we pay their salaries and now they need to help us. They told me that I don't have to belong to either association to maintain my board certification. They just always strongly encouraged it, so I feel kind of taken advantage of, and stupid at the same time. Called my malpractice carrier and found out that ADA membership has allowed me a 10% discount on my premium - only save about $300-400/year (I have a 2M/6M policy) Decided to drop the specialty association and ADA next year and just keep my board dues (only $275) which will save me $2000. At this point in my career I don't need the affiliations with them and, besides, non-member dentists always benefit from legislative efforts by the ADA without paying anything. I've spent about $60,000 in dues over the past 33 years for nothing, really. What have they done for us? Just alot of talk.
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dolph
4/12/2020 12:04:51 am
Isn't it interesting how it takes an event to prove something to yourself that you already knew? Believe me, I struggle with this mightly myself. We all have bills to pay and mouths to feed.
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SeptoLido
4/12/2020 12:37:22 am
Debt. That's what prevents those wonderful thoughts from becoming reality. Every day of this trial run of socialism makes me realize how miserable I've been in dentistry. It's been awesome to not have to ARGUE with dental patients, argue with insurance, argue with a staff member, not hearing "I hate dentists", worrying about how a root canal is going to hold up or whether the shade of a crown is going to be satisfactory, can taxes and rent be paid, having to argue with a belligerent patient with ridiculous expectations while bitching about the costs. Damn I hate dentistry. I wish I had NEVER stepped foot into dental school. This month gives me a glimpse of how less stressful and happy I could have been if only I had gone into something pleasant to do. Dentistry Sucks.
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Denttt
4/12/2020 07:11:24 pm
Have you ever thought that maybe you got into dentistry for the wrong reasons? What was your "why" as a pre-dental student? I would love responses from anyone on this site. Why are there still dentists who are satisfied with their career? What are they doing differently from the dentists on this site? Do you think medicine would give higher job satisfaction?
Reality Bites
4/13/2020 03:32:36 am
Dolph,
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Reality Bites
4/13/2020 03:59:34 am
Denttt,
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Teeth92
4/13/2020 05:53:26 am
The dentistry sucks for me is
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Teeth92
4/13/2020 06:00:56 am
P.S. I would much rather deal with a tradesman than a dentist. I find tradesmen to be more humble and nicer than the average dentist .
Denttt
4/13/2020 12:09:48 pm
What about females who may not be able to get into the trade profession? What other options are available. I've been thinking and I've realized that a lot of dentists make dentistry their life and sole source of income which leads to them feeling stuck and trapped. Couldn't this be combatted by having other trades on the side or side hustles. There might be a balance. I just believe that people start thinking about it too late when they're in too deep.
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Reality Bites
4/13/2020 03:28:32 pm
Denttt,
mary
4/15/2020 06:12:33 am
dentistry really sucks... being a dental student we had to go through an orientation programme in the 'name of dentistry'. we were forced to wear certain attire (high white socks), forced to wear all black pants (we had to tape up all the logos), forced to stand under the sun and sing a dental anthem. what a start to the freshman year.....
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mary
4/15/2020 06:15:40 am
i'm not sure about how dentistry is like in other countries, but for my college everyday was like hell. in sophomore year, the lab technicians threw our lab coats away (which cost me US $15 at least) because they said leaving it on the chairs was a fire hazard.
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Beaver Tail
4/15/2020 12:55:25 pm
I'm not going to sugar coat it for you, Mary. I think it's going to be tough. The aftermath of this scourge may be financially devastating to many in this profession and many may be looking for employment all at the same time.
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Reality Bites
4/15/2020 06:15:44 pm
The post-Covid world is going to be completely different for many years to come. We've crossed the Rubicon and are not going back to the way it was before, whch wasn't that great to begin with. Brave New World. I forsee the end of small businesses, including many dental practices, to be replaced by mega corporations controlling everything. Billionaires, Hollywood stars, music stars, professional athletes, wall streeters, CEOs, politicians and strippers will be fine.
SeptoLido
4/15/2020 07:05:03 pm
Someone earlier asked if we went into dentistry for the wrong reason. Yes, for me, I apparently went into it to make a good living. I now realize that was the wrong reason. Apparently people think we've sinned against God and humanity for going into it to make a profit and support a family.
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EM
4/15/2020 07:07:16 pm
Does anyone know how dental schools are functioning right now? When I was in school everyone graduating was making theIr final push in March,April,and May. I am sure it hasn’t changed too much. Boards were a disaster in normal times so I can’t imagine how it will be now. More loans for rent and living costs will need to be taken out and confusion with post dental school plans. It sucks to be a dentist right now but I really can’t imagine what dental students are going to have to go thru.
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Reality Bites
4/16/2020 07:40:21 am
I have a friend who teaches at the state school. They have a contract with CODA that specifies how many of each procedure has to be done to maintain their certification and now they are busy re-writing the requirements for submission to CODA to see if they will accept them or not. Same for the specialty programs. They are providing pre-doc and post-doc students with online learning to try to make up for it. Those seniors who are way behind on requirements are "screwed" (his word). Mess.
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Danster
4/16/2020 08:43:21 am
I met a young dentist yesterday-
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EM
4/16/2020 09:22:07 am
I live in a state with no dental school. Dentists here must therefore take regional boards in another state. I actually had to pay for my 3 board patients to fly, stay in a motel for multiple nights, and a little spending money for their food just to entice them. The entire cost for the board exam, travel etc. was about $5000 in 1992. I bitched about it then but in hindsight at least I was able to take and pass the board. I wouldn’t have been able to set up practice in my desired location if this situation had come into play back then.
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Beaver Tail
4/16/2020 06:26:47 pm
RB, I dont disagree! 20 years ago when I graduated dental school, 70% of dentists were solo practitioners. Sometime in the last year, only 30% and that was before Covid! That is somewhat astonishing! I have no idea what next year will be like but maybe epic!
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Reality Bites
4/21/2020 03:53:04 pm
Our governor looks like he's hell-bent on keeping us locked down until at least June 1, although AG Barr has said DOJ will join lawsuits, against states like mine, for violating our Constitutional rights and to force states to end these lockdowns. Even when we are allowed to re-open, we will have to adjust to a new reality.
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dolph
4/22/2020 05:21:34 pm
It's all about using events to divide up the little people. Get them scared and fearing each other. That way, they never collectively fight back. Works like a charm and coronavirus will be perfect for that.
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EM
4/24/2020 08:05:05 am
Doctor Trump thinks that science should look into injecting bleach into our bodies to disinfect and kill the virus. Anyone hesitant about Biden should take a hard look.
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Danster
5/11/2020 10:46:28 am
Back at work. For me, the new set up is about 3 more notches up the stress scale. More time for procedures, more equipment, etc. so, less profit and more headaches.
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Drill Fill and Bill
5/11/2020 12:25:51 pm
Danster- Please don't take this too critically but in hindsight you should have just done a new crown. Regardless of when it was done. It's easy to explain to a patient that the tooth extrudes and shifts when a crown has been out for that long. We need to step up our game and fight the fight and we need to change with the times. If we don't we're just going to die off. Within reason we need to be as productive as possible at all times or we will just fade away. Then maybe we can afford some pepperoni on that frozen tombstone pizza 😉
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Danster
5/11/2020 12:32:34 pm
I completely agree. I was in the heat of battle and was tossing water on the 3 fires simultaneously. Should have just told her it will be a new crown and we will see you next time. I had another guy waiting, and was focused on his rock procedure. I could have done a crown on her faster than the forcing a square peg into a round hole.
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Dr B
5/18/2020 07:14:54 am
I cannot foresee a future in Dentistry that is enjoyable or financially lucrative. My only saving grace is that I am in my 50's and have downsized into a smaller practice. I'm going to see where all this Covid 19 takes us but I will not be a slave to OSHA or Ins companies. My physical status is poor at this point so if Dentistry becomes any more challenging I will make a move. I feel sorry for young dentists that bought into the hype and now have debt that can't be paid back with a regular job. It is my hope that the sane people of this country retake freedom back from the tyrants that this virus has exposed. China is our enemy as well as many of our political figures.
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Teeth92
5/18/2020 07:33:57 am
Dr B you are spot on with your comments. I’m glad you have a smaller practice now. I was 51 in poor mental and physical shape and I sold my practice and took some time off to get well. Now at 54 I work 2 days a week in public health and it’s a great fit and so much easier than owning. ( I’m on unemployment currently ). I’m much happier. I graduated in 1992 and dentistry is not the profession it used to be and I did not want to own with all the liabilities. For 24 years I made great money and I enjoyed it for 15 years before dentistry became a commodity and each year it become more difficult to deal with staff, pts , and overhead. Unless a dentist just loves full time practice I think your 50s are a good time to start working less while you are still young enough to enjoy life. I have seen so many dentists practicing too long and they end up hunched over and deaf and some begin having serious medical conditions.
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Michael
5/19/2020 11:53:50 pm
I'm in dental school right now as a D1 in California.. Yes.... I know. Going to graduate with 400-450k debt. I spent countless hours on SDN forum and DentalTown to understand the position I am in. Coming from a low income Asian family, I learned to work hard since I was young, always working during the weekends and etc, so it hasn't been too bad for me, but what do I know about the work out there. I'm deciding to stay single until after I work a few yrs, that way I can move around and find a good office to work at. I think you need a strong positive office to get you through the days, it did for me when I was a dental assistant. A lot of us came into this profession for how how "good" dentistry looks and the money. It still is. but just not as great if you like to compare it with the past. Hopefully things get better for us. To the ones who are older and don't enjoy dentistry, maybe change things up and recruit a younger dentist who is all about being positive and one you can mentor, that is if you enjoy communicating and teaching others.
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dolph
5/21/2020 09:41:13 pm
You are screwed, with no hope for redemption. Discharge the debt now if you can and get out.
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Dr. Longtime
11/6/2020 08:00:21 am
Drop out now before your debt gets any higher. I'm not kidding.
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Eddie
5/20/2020 04:55:52 am
I received my acceptance letter to start D1 in the fall, but now am wondering if it is a better idea for me to not actually start and pivot my career somewhere else. I now that from reading, there is a lot of uncertainty regarding the future of this profession because of covid19, but do many of you believe this feeling will pass and business levels will return to normal in a few years? I would be looking at around 300k debt though, but I understand that is still a lot, and may take many years to pay back. If anyone can comment, how does this look for small businesses coming out? Could they weather the effect of the outbreak better than DSO, or is this a time for DSO to buy out many more small practices? Would love to hear many opinions and speculations about the future of dentistry following this.
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Dr B
5/20/2020 12:32:28 pm
Don't go to dental school it is a financial trap. You have the opportunity to do many other things because if you are intelligent enough to get accepted you are capable of much more. A dentist begged me not to go to dental school 27 years ago and I didn't listen now my body is shot to hell and this job gets harder every year with DSO Ins and Patient ignorance. Find something in the financial or real estate world or go to vet school if you must use your science degree. Avoid this lousy career even people like me that make a good living have grown to despise it. You have been warned.
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SeptoLido
5/20/2020 12:42:20 pm
Dr. B is exactly right. You've been warned. Stay away from dentistry. You will hate this career. As the title says, Dentistry Sucks. There are solid reasons it was titled that way. I hate being a dentist as the stress is unbearable and the rewards just don't come close to compensate for that depressing stress.
dolph
5/21/2020 09:47:16 pm
Don't become a dentist, period, end of story, unless you have the drive to do orthodontics with oral surgery as a backup option, and even then, that is just so that you don't commit suicide at 40, like most dentists will, and delay it until 60. Because at 40 you will actually have a car and a house and income, instead of unpayable debt with no income.
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Eddie
5/22/2020 09:03:09 am
Thanks for the responses. I get that you guys do not recommend the career, but perhaps could you elaborate on what you think will happen to the field as a result of this pandemic? Will it forever change the way you work, or do you think it will only be temporary?
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SeptoLido
5/22/2020 02:57:52 pm
"It's hard for me to accept that dental school is a bad choice as a blanket statement ....."
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Drill Fill and Bill
5/22/2020 04:21:57 pm
I haven't been on this blog for a while and I notice some new names. Each one of you are naive and wet behind the ears. I once heard a heroin addict say that he wishes he could have gotten a hold of himself when he first tried the drug. He would tackle him and chain him down to prevent him from doing heroin the first time. I'm not equating heroin to going to dental school but the analogy works. If I could talk to the 22 year old me I would plead and beg him not to go to dental school. Yes people. Its that bad and will get worse.
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Fábio de Oliveira Ribeiro
5/24/2020 03:08:55 am
Is there a liberal profession that has not been proletarianized? Is there a liberal profession that does not ruin the professional's body? Is there a liberal profession that does not suffer the consequence of the programmed impoverishment of the population by neoliberalism? Is there a liberal profession that is not getting worse? Is there an academic title that has not become irrelevant?
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Drill Fill and Bill
5/24/2020 07:30:27 am
Uh oh.I see a lawyer has found this blog. Now this site is ruined. And after a meaningless, stupid comment like his I am done here. Maybe I will check back in 2021 to see how our profession is doing. As usual a lawyer ruins everything. Good luck to the honest dentists who have used this blog to vent and compare our experiences
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SeptoLido
5/24/2020 09:25:16 pm
Don't let the lawyer run you off. He's just a troll.
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Tony
5/27/2020 07:38:26 am
Hey Everyone,
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Dr. C
5/27/2020 02:51:26 pm
Good for you, Tony! Keep it up! No need to quit the hobbies, it will make you happier when you have other interests.
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I spent 30 years in clinical practice in my own office. Generally good but had an opportunity to sell and did so. Retired and moved out of area. After a while helped out at a regional community health center and really enjoyed the work. Then became an administrative health administrator to the governor. Tasked with recruiting dentists to the state. My dental staff constantly giving examples of recent graduates with $300,000 to $500,000 in student debt. I don't know what they did to run up that amount of debt but these dentists were screwed and they will never be debt free. My advise to any young dentist that has been in practice for 10 years or less and is as discouraged as these posts indicate is to bite the bullet and declare bankruptcy. Get out NOW while you are young and can do something else, even if it means going back to school. Do it now rather than later as it is not going to be easier later. And now with covid, it will be harder. Just don't find yourself at 50 and still hating what you are doing as by then it will be too late. I sincerely wish all here the best.
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Dr. C
6/1/2020 07:00:34 am
Dr. T., what dental students did to run up $300,000 to $500,000 in debt was to go to dental school. That is what it costs these days. Thanks for your story. I like hearing the positive stories, too.
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ROBERTA SIMONSEN
6/1/2020 12:48:57 pm
will anyone please help me get some teeth. I want to laugh and smile again. I sure hope everything works out for you nice smiles peeps. I have no moola or insurance and nobody will help . I seriously do not expect anyone to help me. I understand after accidentally coming across this page and reading all of the concerns and disappointments that I am the kinda patient no dentist wants. Anyhoo. stay safe and well.
Flavio Robert
6/4/2020 08:13:00 am
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Introvert
6/8/2020 01:36:16 pm
I'm very introverted and find myself really struggling with this profession. Not sure if it is worth chugging along or better to try to switch to a more tolerable field (I don't expect a job to be enjoyable, but dentistry can be devastating for the wrong personality). Are any of you in this position? I am considering trying to get into Tech once the economy recovers somewhat. I find myself regretting even applying to Dental School during the Great Recession instead of waiting it out.
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Introvert Too
6/9/2020 06:23:39 pm
Hey Introvert, I am in the same boat as you. Been really struggling with this profession and dealing with anxiety. I am also trying to transition into the tech field. Any way that we can connect to talk more?
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Giving Up
6/9/2020 06:28:04 pm
Do anything but dentistry. Dentistry is a horrible profession to be in.
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Giving Up
6/9/2020 06:40:25 pm
Final comment. Do anything but dentistry. It's a lost cause!!!
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Tony
6/11/2020 09:41:56 am
Introvert,
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Danster
6/17/2020 09:49:53 am
Always think of yourself first. What can you do to improve your life?
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Teeth92
6/17/2020 10:58:14 am
Danster is spot on. The 8 headed fire breathing monster destroyed me after 24 years of owning. I waved the white flag and left. Occasionally, I still have flashbacks, but for the most part I am fully recovered . Thank you Danster for your comments. Now, the next comment will be from a young person posting that they have dreamt of being a dentist since childhood and will question the validity of over 1000 comments about not going to dental school and they will claim that we are just old and disgruntled dentists.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/10/2020 03:42:38 pm
July 10, 2020. A day that will live in infamy in my life. Today I gave notice at my office. The pilot light has been extinguished. Whatever passion or interest I had in this profession is gone forever. To those who post here and read this blog know all the reasons why Dentistry is doomed. I finally came to the realization that my health and happiness is the most important thing in the world. And I will not allow dentistry to suck it out of my life anymore. I'm letting joy back into my heart and soul regardless of the small price I will pay financially. Stay safe. Be happy. And live your life the way u want to. Not what others expect from you.
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SeptoLido
7/10/2020 09:26:50 pm
Congratulations. I think you made the right decision. Certainly going on as it was would have been futile. Our world and country is doomed. We all fought a noble fight. Don't leave us completely. Chime in and let us know how things are going from time to time.
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Teeth92
7/10/2020 04:09:54 pm
Congratulations DFB!! 7/10/20 is a new beginning. Enjoy your family. And focus on hobbies and not being a punching bag any longer. Your health and life will greatly improve. So happy for your success
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Lozzer
7/14/2020 10:35:20 am
I must want my head examining! At one point, I was passionate about becoming a dentist - and not simply for the money. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful (but came close). I nearly reapplied until I was saddened to learn about the current state of the profession from speaking with qualified dentists and reading some of the latest peer-reviewed research.
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dolph
7/19/2020 09:38:56 am
Cults are difficult to overcome, precisely because they work at the level of the mind. Some are very successful (religion) but even those undergo periodic revisions and changes.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/19/2020 09:42:08 am
Dolph-nobody knows what you look like. But if I were to look up the word idiot in a dictionary I'm sure I'll see your face
SeptoLido
7/21/2020 09:58:48 pm
Dolph, you have to be the most arrogant mofo I've seen in quite awhile. It seems you take personal pride in making an asshole out of yourself on international forums. I would call you a moron but that would be an insult to morons. F.O.
Danster
7/15/2020 08:26:06 am
Happy for you Bill. Great advice also. Best wishes for the future!
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dolph
7/19/2020 09:50:41 am
For those of you who have followed my posts, you see that all I do is take a step back, look at trends, and then ask, what the heck is going on here. So, I've been very clear that the powers that be are inflating the currency, and enriching the oligarchs to the tune of quadrillions while you face decreasing pay and increasing cost of everything.
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dolph
7/19/2020 09:56:05 am
So, drill and fill, you love dentistry? It's not a cult?
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dolph
7/19/2020 10:00:37 am
Drill and fill, I understand you are a patriotic American, I get it. But things change in time. The America you knew and love is gone, over, done. It's in the past. Just like you are no longer a 20 year old running around.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/19/2020 12:34:43 pm
Dolph-Like milfoil on a pristine lake or grime on a city window you and your comments have tainted this blog. A puff of my breath will extinguish your pathetic soul forever like a child blowing out a birthday candle. So poof. You are gone forever.
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dolph
7/19/2020 05:09:01 pm
Okay, drill and fill. Enjoy your retirement, one less scumbag to deal with in our profession.
dolph
7/19/2020 05:11:02 pm
I'm sure it's easy for you to act tough behind your screen, keyboard warrior. You would be a good riddance to this community
Kate
7/20/2020 08:38:11 am
I dropped out of my dental university on 4th year. I know it’s sounds crazy but I literally started to have depression and panick attacks. Not to mention I already had scoliosis so I can’t imagine my back problems 15 years from now. I think that dentistry is overrated and glamorized in my country too; also I was not passionate about it. And one thing I’ve learnt in life is : to be successful, you need to be passionate about your job. I think people who are really successful in dentistry are naturally good businessmen plus they really enjoy being a dentist. I think Inwent to dental school because half of my family is in medical business and everyone makes you believe that once you are a dentist, you won a lottery. But the truth is, there is lots of other career fields who can give you as much money. Anyway, I am changing my career to real estate and marketing though it is difficult to explain to everyone why I dropped out. Most people think I am a quitter but I really enjoy my life now and I feel there is so many interesting opportunities for life choices. Not regrettining a thing - apart from wasting 4 years.
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happylife
7/20/2020 05:53:46 pm
Kate,
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Tony
7/21/2020 08:31:34 am
It's been awhile. Sorry about Dolph. He was a little edgy but I do agree with some of his comments.
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Danster
7/21/2020 09:18:41 am
I agree with you Tony. I am thankful. Its stressful, and often thankless. But, when I look around, and am honest, I have a ton with which to be thankful. I even did a beautiful MOD amalgam (I hear you, but, insurance would not pay for a composite, and he refused to pay the difference) this morning and it was very enjoyable. Lots of decay, but not near a pulp exposure. And I had Andy Griffith on the TV in the corner, and we 3 chatted about stuff unrelated to tooth repair.
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Reality Bites
7/21/2020 10:37:25 am
I haven't looked at this site in months. Been completely depressed and demoralized by the end of America as we know it. Knew it would eventually happen, but always hoped otherwise. We're way past the point of no return with a brainwashed, self-destructive populace, authoritarian government and demographic shift assuring an unpleasant ending. If you haven't yet, simplify all aspects of your life, especially financial, to try and weather the coming Communist storm. Between a wealth tax or outright asset confiscation that may not be possible, but one has to try. I would sell any existing real estate, other than your primary residence. I am keeping my office condo, for now, only because I'm still working (finally), but the election results, and/or another lockdown, may change that. I have a plan ready to implement, if needed - to close my practice (not worth anything these days) while giving my existing patients 1-2 months notice, refer my patients to a friend and put the condo up for sale. I recommend staying invested in stocks and bonds but keep a lot of cash on hand and in your accounts. Forget gold and silver - shiny rocks won't matter when the SHTF.
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Beaten to a Pulp
7/22/2020 06:05:26 am
I've been away for some time too. I feel the same way, it tares my heart to pieces, as I love the fabric that the American society was built on, and how much hope and prosperity it offered to those who worked hard for it. I am aware that we have had plenty of social issues, but in comparison to other countries, we always made it better, even if there was pain and suffering along the way - unlike places like Venezuela and Cuba. This hits home hard on me because my grandparents barely made it out with their lives in Eastern Europe when the communists took away there property and freedom. They were so grateful to be in the United States, and made sure I was proud of it too.
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Beaver Tail
7/22/2020 01:36:42 pm
RB, I agree with you with the possible exception of gold/silver. As a tangible hard hands on asset, what's to keep the guy down the street holding a gun to your head and telling you to give it to him or else! But have you seen metals and mining stocks lately? Completely parabolic!
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Danster
7/21/2020 07:23:50 pm
RB, I agree 100%. So long USA.
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xyz
7/22/2020 03:11:48 pm
My daughter told me she made a NP appt at a new dental clinic at WalMart. $60 total for exam, x-rays, cleaning., $25 pano...as if the DSO's weren't bad enough... Take a look at these fees:
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/22/2020 03:44:28 pm
Hey x,y,x...what state is Walmart now doing dentistry? I read a while ago that Georgia is test marketing dental clinics there. Just wondering if it’s happening elsewhere now. I don’t think your average patient who doesn’t shop at Walmart will seek dental care there. Same holds true to for eye care. But If you’re shopping for a TV or a couple cases of beer or even a few gallons of soda and you realize some of your teeth are loose why not get the extractions done there before you check out at the register
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xyz
7/22/2020 05:23:58 pm
Arkansas - the home of Sam himself. There are several in GA also. I thought she was kidding when she told me the fees, but, nope. To be honest, my eye doctor was in a WalMart here on the east coast- it was his own little one man practice - he leased the space and WalMart ran the optical sales. I followed him there from when he was an associate. Not sure if/how well that would work for dentistry. I just don't think the small practices can compete with the bargaining power or the advertising/exposure of being inside a WalMart.
Danster
7/22/2020 04:14:09 pm
First one was N Georgia. Test model.
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xyz
7/22/2020 05:28:26 pm
PS - it kills me that they labelled the "big procedures" as Add Ons... like, what the heck, you went to dental school, residency, continuing, etc, etc to see if pts want to add on a fluoride with that hamburger?
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Tony
7/28/2020 07:52:18 am
I am considering selling the practice to a local corporation. That way when the economy continues to deteriorate I've got some cash in hand although not the same amount as a private sale. I feel that as this scenario continues the corps will swoop in and complete the transformation of dentistry. In 6 months it will be a buyers market whereas currently, it may be neutral. Thoughts?
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Mark
7/28/2020 08:21:49 am
I think that's a good idea. I've already had some friends on Dentaltown do so, although they were closer to retirement age anyways (60-65), they felt it was best not to deal with the post-covid clinical care as they are getting old.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/28/2020 08:29:13 am
Tony- I think it's good timing to sell to a corporation. Why avoid the inevitable? I sold to a large DSO a year ago I have a 2 year contract to work for them. I treat my patients then go home. No headaches. I am 56 and just couldn't take the stress anymore. I feel as though I dropped the ball and chain. I never planned on selling this early in my career but who could predict this environment for our profession? There is nothing wrong with taking an exit off the highway before your final destination. There is a lot of sight seeing to do. Good luck 👍
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Teeth92
7/28/2020 09:35:11 am
DFB. I only made it to 51 yo until I sold due to the stress. I’m definitely a proponent of selling and getting your life back. I work 2 days a week treating patients and let someone else worry about the hiring and the patients. After work I am done. That is a feeling that you can’t put an amount of money on. Now , I am 54 yo and healthier and happier.
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Tony
7/29/2020 08:25:25 am
I'm concerned about selling and then being told I have to do X number of crowns and X number of RCT's per month. How has that worked out for you guys that sold?
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/29/2020 08:58:16 am
Tony- that is a legitimate concern. If your production is reasonable now there shouldn't be a reason as to why that would drop once a DSO comes in. Fortunately for me it hasn't been an issue with me as they pretty much leave me alone since they are content with the current numbers. When u interview DSOs asked them what is expected of you as far as production goes. The last thing they want to do is upset the senior doctor to a point where he threatens to leave. When a practice changes ownership the last thing the patients want to see is change.
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Teeth92
7/29/2020 10:29:39 am
Definitely a concern making production in DSO world. Could sell to an individual and then consider working in public health or in the corrections system. Also , there are dentists who work for the military as civilian dentists.
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Drill Fill and Bill
7/29/2020 09:47:53 pm
I would advise against selling to a recent graduate or any individual as they can easily default on payment. The big DSOs have deep pockets. Collect 75% of purchase price up front then the rest after 2 year contract is up. Look at it as forced savings and incentive for you to stay on board as employee with good faith to keep up production.
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Tony
8/12/2020 09:00:27 am
Pretty slow on here lately. I guess everyone is hunkering down waiting to see what happens.
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Gary
8/17/2020 02:26:26 pm
I hated dentistry!
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Tony
8/19/2020 07:26:21 am
Gary, Better today? It's a world of ups and down. I'm down this week too. We're slow... too slow and I'm scrambling to get new patients. If I could do something else and get a decent pay check, I would. This sucks.
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Mark
8/24/2020 08:10:59 pm
Does anyone have a link to the facebook group of dentists?
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Danster
8/25/2020 10:24:15 am
Something I have observed and wished to share with my friends:
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SeptoLido
8/25/2020 10:29:35 am
It should be considered as child abuse and inhumane to promote and encourage a loved one to enter dental school.
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Teeth92
9/3/2020 07:49:51 am
SeptoLido! Thank you for the great laugh this morning. Your comment will make me smile all day long.
Drill Fill and Bill
8/25/2020 10:36:37 am
Hey Danster. Nice to see a post from someone who uses this blog thoughtfully. Seems like this site has been plagued by posts from trolls. Anyway...you are not off base. You are spot on. Although my kids never showed interest in dentistry I would do whatever I could to persuade them to do something else. As best as I tried to hide my frustration, anger, and unhappiness with this profession I know as my kids got older they saw the hell I was going through. So there was no way that they would want to become a dentist anyway. I shake my head when I think of what dental students are going through now and what they will be going through doing their careers. Working for these huge DSOs is pure hell. If there was a way to talk to the 22-year-old version of myself I would take him by the shoulders and shake him and slap his face a few times and say don't do it. Stay away from dental school. This profession will suck the life and soul out of you.
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Reality Bites
8/26/2020 06:32:41 am
Danster,
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Tony
8/26/2020 09:25:43 am
I agree with the above statements. I definitely discourage kids to go into dentistry. If a kid is in Dental school... good luck
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dolph
8/31/2020 01:25:33 pm
Just like you can't criticize the Israelites, or the Democrats, or the rich, etc.
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chocolate_fan
8/30/2020 05:11:48 pm
It’s so interesting to have found this website for dentists. My parents have worked for 30+ years now, and I have to be honest, just thinking about their life makes me want to cry. Starting with nothing and working their way up to their own private practice was something I looked up to them for and had been inspired by. However, I can tell you that every late night they got off of work they would talk about, you guessed it, work. Always work. On the weekends, whenever. And it wasn’t so much by choice, it was more of making ends meet. I am so disappointed and saddened that watch them work their a**es off just be on hold with insurance for hours, to have their schedules dwindled down as some patients don’t have the DECENCY to even cancel— the amount of no-shows would astound you. I’m disappointed in the quality care, the time they spend to get to know someone and create and describe an elaborate treatment plan to someone who ends up doing none of the recommended work. I hate watching people complain about the price of a freaking $28 check-up that they spend half of an hour on, yet they talk about their new car or recent travel with their $50 acrylic nail set they get done every few weeks. Why won’t people wear a retainer or a nightguard if they OWN one and have invested so much in getting their teeth straightened? My parents even let them know that if there is any discomfort that they can come in and they’ll take a look at their appliance to see if they can adjust anything. So many people haven’t even paid for their work, I hope they try to change that so that payment is required upfront (but how could that work with all of the paperwork to submit). People don’t understand the overhead (heck, even I really don’t) and just all the costs to run an operation. And what’s worse, is to find out that some other dentists who some patients have left and came to my parents were very greedy. As we found out, some would charge for X-rays they either did not take or were totally unnecessary. There is no in and out rush at this office, but so many people don’t seem to have an ounce of appreciation for their time. COVID had presented an extremely challenging time for them with loss of workers and no one who is qualified for the positions available. I would never recommend anyone to become a dentist unless they’re going to be part of some swindling group, but even then they’ll likely be overworked and underpaid. I feel like my parents have wasted their life away quite frankly, I don’t wish it on anyone. If you become one, please, please, work in an affluent area where people care not only about their looks but their oral health as well and have the money to pay for it, who are respectable and will respect you back. Sorry for rambling on, but I can’t keep it to myself because I’m sure other people can sympathize just a bit.
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Mb2
11/10/2020 06:50:31 am
Are your parents GPs or orthodontists?
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Danster
8/31/2020 01:09:05 pm
Chocolate_fan, we all completely relate to your parents. No matter where you live. I agree that affluent areas would be the choice, but even those folks have their headaches. If I were forced to go to dental school as a young person, I would make a bee line for the military and stay there until retirement. To me its the ONLY choice. Unless you have a wealthy family member willing to fund your life while you struggle for a few years.
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dolph
8/31/2020 01:32:06 pm
You are correct, Reality Bites, it's all over. It's very strange and scary for me as well. I do not celebrate it, but rather observe it.
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Reality Bites
8/31/2020 06:14:19 pm
100% correct, Dolph. And agree - wish I was wrong but we're done as a cohesive country.
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dolph
8/31/2020 01:46:08 pm
By the way, any comments from me attacking anyone are not actually from me. Remember, anybody can post anything here using any name. I did not post anything with foul and abusive language.
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Danster
8/31/2020 02:01:38 pm
As bad as that picture is, I am afraid you have a point. I think there is power in positive thinking, even though its tough to do with our current circumstances. Maybe it won't be as dreadful as you describe.
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Reality Bites
8/31/2020 06:17:50 pm
Watch "Yugoslavian girl issues warning to Americans".
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Tony
9/2/2020 07:59:39 am
Watched it. I didn't know which way she was leaning until the end. I kinda wish she didn't mention Trump because it might gain more watches. Then again, it might changes some minds.
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Tony
9/1/2020 02:18:04 pm
Dolph (the real one), Glad to see you back!
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Reality Bites
9/2/2020 12:14:27 pm
Tony, that's what I finally decided - to work for myself rather than trying to sell to a corporation and then be fired. Best to have have your future in your own hands for as long as it lasts or until I decide I've had enough. I wish I could look on the bright side, as you do, but even considering all of the possible scenarios, I can't see this ending well.
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Danster
9/2/2020 10:14:52 am
Watched it RB. Scary. I shared it with all I know. But, most I run with already knew this country was going to hell.
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Lqtm
9/9/2020 06:47:52 am
Lol y’all are so funny! “America is dead, the youth are entitled!! 😥“
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Dan
9/9/2020 11:10:44 am
Is this profession really as bad for your physical health (e.g. back, hands, neck) as has been suggested?
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Dster
9/9/2020 11:19:00 am
Lqtm! what are you doing here? We love the USA.
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Dster
9/9/2020 11:25:49 am
Its no worse than bushhogging or using a sling blade or maybe some roofing work for your back and neck.
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Dan
9/9/2020 12:13:48 pm
Thanks Dster. What are your thoughts on the profession as a whole at the moment? If you knew someone personally who was considering it as a career, what would you say to them?
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Dster
9/9/2020 12:39:54 pm
1. Its a very noble profession. A dentist has many hats - a Dr., councilor, and an artist. Many others also.
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Dan
9/9/2020 01:05:36 pm
Appreciate your thoughts. It's certainly not cheap and it's disgraceful that so many people try and sue their dentists it seems, given the nature of what they do and the sacrifices they've made to get there!
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Dster
9/9/2020 01:27:48 pm
I actually enjoy much of the procedures each day. How? Because I have locked myself in and happiness is a choice. It can be fun with a good patient and a light hearted attitude.
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Dan
9/9/2020 02:26:30 pm
Thanks for your openness. It's great that you can still enjoy it. Would you say it's affected your mental health?
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Dster
9/9/2020 01:40:35 pm
Dan- take a rainy day, and read as many comments from this blog as you can. You will get different angles about this profession from the many respectable people who have commented.
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Dster
9/9/2020 02:34:49 pm
I started out with "wow! I am now a real Dr of dental medicine!" to "dang this is stressful" to "OMG! I don't think I can face another day" to seeing a therapist to "well, I am sort of stuck in this" to "Its a real B#$%& but I have to make a living" to "Its just a job and nothing will knock me down and when I leave, I will forget it". So, all is well.
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Dan
9/9/2020 02:44:26 pm
Gosh, it sounds like you've had quite a tough time of it. I'm sorry to hear that. Do you know of many colleagues who've struggled with the stress of the job?
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Dster
9/9/2020 03:35:18 pm
Many. All singing a similar song. Read back in this blog. Or even better, go talk to people in the field. Best wishes!
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Tony
9/10/2020 10:41:33 am
My closest dental friends are very stressed out. One is a general dentist and one is an orthodontist. We've been doing this for about 20 years. My orthodontist friend went "all in" last year and moved his office to a better location, took out $600,000 in loans and moved. Then his office exploded because the general contractor didn't cap the gas in the furnace. Turned the heat on..... and bam! He's got about 1.5million dollars in lawsuits against him now even though it wasn't his fault. Then Covid. Yeah, he's a wreck these days.
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Tony
9/15/2020 08:08:09 am
Last week I met with my accountant and they informed me that I owe them $9K for an oversite from 2019. It's legit, but it triggered me. We've been holding this practice together since lockdown but now it's all piled up and I've lost it. Feeling hopeless. I've gotta stop watching the news but I can't. Fuck.
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Reality Bites
9/16/2020 04:19:36 pm
Tony, it's little consolation but you're not alone. I find it difficult going to the office every day and having to deal with the same business issues while feeling like everything I've done and am doing for the past 30 years is all for naught with our country being torn apart. If it gets crazy or we go Communist, then my decision to close will be made for me.
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Danster
9/22/2020 10:33:32 am
What about the people that can make a living at home? Wow. " I work from home" ..... when I hear that I think what a lucky person, but I am also jealous. How about the ones that can take off for a medical problem, or the ones that get paid holidays, sick time, and Covid paid time off. Wow. Thats a dream job. Paid and you do not have to be there!!! Thats my goal for my next life.
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Tony
9/29/2020 08:39:49 am
I've got a few patients that have Airstreams and travel around the country with their families; and working. Or those that stay in London or Paris for a summer, working.
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Tony
9/29/2020 11:12:40 am
Didn't win
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.
9/30/2020 04:32:09 pm
I applied to dental school this cycle and I am not so sure if I really want to pursue this career.... I graduated from college this year with bio degree... If I get accepted, I will probably have to pay 360k (tuition + fees + living expenses) for my education and this amt does not include the interest. Is this profession getting saturated? Are new grads struggling to find a job?
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Dr. C
10/1/2020 07:42:33 am
@.
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Danster
10/7/2020 07:56:58 am
If you get into dental school, get ready for academic hazing, extreme stress and high expenses. If you still run the gauntlet, and graduate, go straight to the US military. Its is the only viable option that removes the stress of business/PPO insurance that we have all complained about so much. I just looked at the Air Force career dental video, and that looks really great. And pretty darn good reviews also. Wish I had done that.
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Forget it
10/7/2020 03:49:01 pm
Stay away from dentistry. Not worth it you will never pay those loans back. NYU the biggest rip off school there is. Seven hundred thousand dollar loan to do what a 50 dollar filling. Don’t do it!!!!
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Danster
10/12/2020 01:58:16 pm
I used to have the attitude, that I could jump through any work related hoop, no matter how taxing, I could borrow a fortune, take years off my life to reach a lofty goal, climb any mountain, etc... as long as I would some day be PAID ACCORDINGLY for all my blood, sweat, and tears. And about 30 years ago, socialism was brought in to the equation in the form of PPO Insurance, and the motivation to work harder than anyone else, or be better than anyone else, or get excited about work because of the great compensation, was all gone. The playing field had been leveled and socialism had ruined my motivation. Now, its survival only. That is the way it is. A friend said "I can't afford to be a dentist. It costs more than I make".
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micheal
10/17/2020 05:32:04 am
I just want the whole world to know about this spell caster I met
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Mary
10/18/2020 03:24:42 pm
I'm a dentist, 26 years old, I've been practicing for 3 years and HATED every second of it. I feel so miserable I want to cry everyday before work. I tried seeing a therapist, it didn't help me. It literally KILLS me inside when certain things happen like an infection following a tooth extraction and the patient says something like "I've had many extractions before and never in my life I experienced pain like this" or "I've never suffered so much because of a tooth". I feel like complete sh*t. I just can't handle the fact that I might be hurting someone, even when I know I'm trying my best. I'm not happy and I think I never will be in this career. I'm quiting this year because I need my mental health back. I'm currently figuring out what I'm gonna do next and how I'm gonna tell my family and friends.
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hi
10/18/2020 03:39:23 pm
How much student loans do you have?
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Mary
10/18/2020 04:15:25 pm
None! I'm from Portugal, I guess here it isn't that expensive to become a dentist...
Relatable
10/19/2020 05:56:43 pm
This is all too relatable.. been practicing for 2 years now and absolutelyHATE it. The anxiety that comes with treatment/upset patients is too much for me to handle most days. It takes a mental toll on me too to think I could be hurting someone. I want to leave dentistry but I'm not sure what else to do. Keep us posted on what you end up doing instead... I'm looking for ideas myself
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Dr. Donald Shmonald
10/23/2020 10:04:49 am
I graduated in 1998. Today, I am retiring. You're all fucking fucked financially. Good luck to you....it won't do any good.
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Dr. F
10/24/2020 10:53:25 pm
Go to your so called organization that lobbies for you - if they will not even put it out the concern of all dentist “do not hesitate in abandoning your organization your membership fuels their law makers but more so the insurance that pays them more than you - if there is no membership there is no way they will exist to take money from insurances to make us dentist suffer for substandard payments
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Reality Bites
10/25/2020 07:01:48 am
Mutual support with family and friends is the most important thing during these stressful and chaotic times. If you haven't yet, stock up on home and office suppiles to weather what may come the rest of 2020 and into next year. I've prepared the best I can for myself and my family and have extended support to my friends and acquaintances.
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jeff
10/26/2020 07:55:00 am
man the dentists in this thread are just depressing as hell. does dentistry suck? yeah some days and definitely there is a lot of stress. best thing to address this is to get yourself out of debt so that you have the freedom to determine if you want to stay or if you want to go. i have been through all the horrors of dentistry: worked for corps, bought a office only to find out the seller and broker back-stabbed me, daily grind of patients, running a business, etc., and one of the things i was determined to do when i took over an office was to get myself out of debt. so after i turned the declining office around, in 13 months i paid off 275k of student loans, 18 months to pay off 485k of office debt, and then finally 13 months to pay off 400k of house. so in 3 1/2 years i paid off over 1.1 million in debt and now it is a pretty low-stress existence. i expect to work for about 10 more years after which my savings and investments will be in the mid to high 7 digits at which time i can determine to quit, or just 'retire-in-practice' and just glide. so instead of sitting on the pity-pot, do something. make a determine effort to get out of debt--that is the key to whether you can regain control, or just sit around and complain all day and kill yourself.
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SeptoLido
10/26/2020 08:35:47 am
Are you an Amish dentist? Do you ride a horse to work? Do you hold a revolver to your patient's heads and demand $3000 per crown before they leave? Do you pay your lab bills? Utility bills? Are you single and eating only cold cereal with water? What brand of tent do you sleep in and what bottled water do you use? Asking for a friend.
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jeff
10/26/2020 10:01:06 am
lol you are funny (not!). i am just someone who decided to instead complain, take action to get out of the shithole. a lot of the problems with the complaints on here can be traced to the giant debt burden. take that away and a lot of stress falls sideways as well. without debt, if you really hate teh field so much, go work in less demanding dental positions like for prisons, part-time, whatever, because you can afford to do so. i mean look at you. i only skimmed some of the posts above and i notieced that you have been camping out and saying the same shit over and over again over at least the last 2-3 years. during this time i paid off everything and i can sit here and say that i have a pretty low stress job. self-betterment is better than self-pity any day. won't be back to this silly blog to waste more of my time and hope you either get out of trouble with constructive action rather than drown yourself in your own pitty and sorrows.
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SeptoLido
11/9/2020 03:45:28 pm
Hey Jeffy, I didn't sign up to hear ," I hate dentists", everyday you mother fucker. I also didn't sign up for people to get great dentistry from me and then have to fight for months to get paid, you mother fucker. My work is fantastic because these people keep coming back. I also didn't sign up for a despicable insurance companies to strip me of my profits, you mother fucker. You Jeffy, are full of shit. If you were so good at dentistry as you claim, you'd be on the lecture schedules every month.
SeptoLido
10/26/2020 10:50:10 am
I'm not very good at voicing my apologies so I'm just going to say un-fuck you.
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jeff
10/26/2020 11:31:50 am
honestly i can't see you being good at anything except being a pity-pot occupant. maybe there is a reason why you are struggling and not being at another level. remember, even if you are to complain, you have no one other than yourself to blame, because it is you who chose dentistry, you who signed up for it, and you who are unwilling to take steps to get out if you hate it so much. time to own up to some responsibility and look in the mirror. i didn't have help from anyone but i pulled myself out of there, it was very hard but i did it. i didn't sit on the pot and cry my eyes out when it is obvious doing so is only destructive. but i guess misery loves company as is shown convincingly on this thread.
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Danster
10/27/2020 02:05:07 pm
This is a place to blow off steam and converse with others that understand the challenges. College and dental school was a real butt kicker for most, and to discover PPO insurance, staff BS and expenses are somewhat over whelming, many can use a place to vent.
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Reality Bites
10/28/2020 12:37:41 pm
Well said.
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Danster
10/27/2020 02:24:30 pm
Furthermore- I find some of the comments funny. Entertaining. And like texting, can be misinterpreted. Easily. 2020 has been a bad year, and this election is just plain scary.
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SeptoLido
11/6/2020 02:28:12 pm
Times are finally so bad that I can finally say I miss dental school.
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Mb2
11/7/2020 08:13:35 pm
Been practicing for 7 years and absolutely love it. Probably because I've always been great with my hands. I can give a palatal injection to kids pain free.
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Drill Fill and Bill
11/7/2020 08:30:16 pm
Well woopty damn doo. There's something to hang your hat on
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Danster
11/9/2020 03:33:45 pm
Ha Ha Ha! Good one Mb2. See, we can lighten up and all laugh a bit. I use the palatal inj. as the great equalizer. They want to cut up?, then I light em up with the palatal equalizer. Yowza!
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123
11/9/2020 03:46:45 pm
why do all dentists live in a 1M+ house?
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SeptoLido
11/9/2020 03:56:04 pm
Ask Jeffy that question. He's the one that's raking in the big bucks. The real question is why do patients who owe $5000 for their dentistry seem to always go on big vacations and drive two or three Mercedes cars all parked in an upper and lower set of garages of a McMansion?
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123
11/11/2020 12:25:27 am
How much do practice owners make (general dentistry)? Is it easy to make 300k as a general dentist?
EM
11/9/2020 05:57:26 pm
Just wondering what Danster and Giving Up think of Joe Biden, now. You didn’t think he had a chance on March 19.
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Danster
11/10/2020 07:08:33 am
To avoid inflammation, my view is to enjoy the entertainment and try to not take anything too seriously. Harris, Shummer, Pelosi, AOC, and the Bern, will really be the powerful ones as Joe does not really know what today is or who his sister is. As Brisco Darling says "more power to them". I
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Danster
11/10/2020 07:48:53 am
What is everyone elses opinion? I may be way off base. Hope I am.
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EM
11/10/2020 09:10:13 am
It is almost impossible to beat an incumbent President. Do not believe that he was so great just because he said so. Anyone who has been even somewhat awake these past 4 years would know how bad of a job he did. He did obstruct justice but could not be indicted as a sitting President. He did withhold aid to an ally for personal gain in Ukraine and was impeached but his Senate cronies let him off the hook. He separated kids from parents at the border and totally mishandled the virus response. When he leaves office, he will be the 1st president since Hoover to lose jobs during his term. There’s a lot more but what else do you need.
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SeptoLido
11/10/2020 09:17:41 am
I completely disagree with every single thing you said. Even with the ankle biting democraps bothering him everyday, he did 500% more good things than any president in the near past. You should stop sniffing the n202 so much.
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Tony
11/10/2020 09:27:42 am
Ditto to SeptoLido
Maverick
11/27/2020 11:00:35 am
Twiddle dumb and twiddle dee here are both trolls. Trump did 500% more good things than any president? LOL. The person who literally said the virus which has killed over a quarter of million citizens "a democratic hoax"? The same man who said it would disappear "like a miracle"? The same person who admitted to knowing about the virus all along and lying about it? This person? This person who has done everything in his power to divide this once great country and smash democracy to pieces? Drop dead you fascist pigs.
Danster
11/10/2020 09:37:38 am
Mega dittos SeptoLido
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Danster
11/10/2020 09:46:40 am
Trump has just as much right as any President to protest the this election. And he owes it to half the country to do so. Gore did it. It is why there are 60 days between election and swearing in. Of course this was a corrupt election. Only an idiot would disagree. The US Constitution protects us- (Or at least it is supposed to do that),and I sure hope the Supreme Court and Justice Lame Roberts will do the correct thing and follow the LAW.
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Maverick
11/27/2020 10:54:41 am
Are you on drugs? Trump lost. Get over it. You remind me of the idiots on the south waving the confederate flag all these years later. YOU LOST AND EVERYBODY HATES YOU AND WHAT YOU STAND FOR. Get over it! Can't wait for you boomers to die off.
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EM
11/10/2020 09:51:24 am
I have never sniffed the n2o2 and do not have access to it anyways as I retired 4 years ago at age 50. I didn’t need any Republican or Democrat president to achieve success and no dentist should. Your life depends way more on what you do and very little on who is in the White House.
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EM
11/10/2020 12:07:25 pm
Other than golf, I was always taught that the team with the higher score was the winner. Trump wants to stop the count and then count all the legal votes( those are the ones for him). You guys are too much! This is where conspiracy meets reality.
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SeptoLido
11/10/2020 12:15:59 pm
Why are you saying we are "too much"? We are watching a corrupt group of despicable and deplorable liberal democrats cheating the voting process. What is your agenda to support a lying, deceptive, socialist goon Biden/Harris. You will see that Danster and I are correct. If Trump is the official loser in this election, we all lose. You think 2020 has been bad, just wait for 2021.
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Maverick
11/27/2020 10:53:13 am
Go away troll.
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Danster
11/10/2020 01:15:01 pm
And one more thing!
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SeptoLido
11/10/2020 01:20:59 pm
Danster, that's why this blog is called Dentistry Sucks. Because it sucks and is grueling.
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Mb2
11/10/2020 03:02:18 pm
I've done a #2 crown prep on a stage 4 Parkinson's pt. Dude was shaking the entire damn chair throughout the entire procedure because he was grabbing onto their arm rests. He apologized, but I was having the time of my life. I laughed about it with my colleagues afterwards.
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Danster
11/10/2020 05:26:23 pm
Agree SL,
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EM
11/11/2020 09:03:53 pm
You say that there is a decline in society. I say there is a decline in a few dentists when I read the crap that you and SL are peddling. What is this “ if Trump loses” bullshit? He LOST you idiots. If someone disagrees with you guys you slam them. I don’t have a different opinion than you. I am just stating the obvious Trump lost and on January 20 he can either leave office on his own or get his ass kicked out! Unbelievable that someone with so much education could be so stupid.
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SeptoLido
11/12/2020 04:40:23 am
Biden cheated to win, you brain dead, liberal, ignotarded asshole. If stupidity and ignorance were painful, you would need to be on a morphine pump. Go crawl back into your socialist pie hole, you insignificant and ridiculous democrat.
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Maverick
11/27/2020 10:52:29 am
Septo, you're literally a troll. Kill yourself. Trump is a loser and so are you. Get over it.
STOP THE STEAL
11/12/2020 12:59:04 pm
TRUMP 2020
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Dr. I Agree
11/12/2020 04:56:01 pm
Trump 2020, Biden in a memory-care facility.
Danster
11/12/2020 05:29:45 am
SL- ha ha ha! Thanks. You have a way with words that’s refreshing.
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EM
11/12/2020 07:38:47 am
The vaccine will likely not get to the general public for 4-6 months and smart people like you probably won’t take it because they heard some conspiracy about it. If there is another lockdown it will be the last resort. I think a lockdown is appropriate for your patients,SL, as it may save them from something far more serious than COVID-19—YOU!!
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SeptoLido
11/12/2020 08:14:26 am
EM, why do you enjoy knowing that hundreds of little people are killed by the cruel hands of your fellow doctors?
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EM
11/12/2020 09:15:47 am
Really don’t know what you are talking about? I was responding with sarcasm to your comments about me. I would think that most normal dentists would think that they are unprofessional to say the least.
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abes
11/14/2020 06:29:38 am
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Small Business
11/14/2020 11:27:36 pm
Why would any business owner vote for Biden? He is to increase Corporate income tax from 21% to 28% as well as payroll tax.
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lol
11/17/2020 07:20:39 pm
People who borrowed 500k+ to become a general dentist are the same individuals who voted for Biden... they are braindead PERIOD
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Maverick
11/27/2020 10:48:29 am
... Yeah screw every other issue in the world, right? The poor corporations and rich people!
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SeptoLido
11/15/2020 06:12:15 am
People who voted for Biden are extremely stupid people. They have lost their minds. It should be considered a mental disease to be a liberal.
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agreed
11/17/2020 07:22:15 pm
only people who voted for biden should pay more tax $$$$
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EM
11/15/2020 08:39:08 am
Bought a typical practice in 1996 and went deep in debt. Retired in 2016 with 4 million net worth. Voted for Biden in 2020. Who’s the stupid one? It has been 24 years and 12 years were with Democratic president and 12 years with Republican. If you want to blame your situation on whomever is president go ahead, but it likely will not matter much.
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Mr. EM
11/17/2020 07:22:55 pm
Mr. EM, It's time to take your pills sir :)
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Giving Up
11/15/2020 09:36:47 am
Looks like we need to add, "A Liar" to EMs profile.
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EM
11/15/2020 10:34:49 am
Oh Giving Up it’s so good to hear from you. I thought you actually had given up. Not everyone is a hack at finances like you. Enjoy your long long long long dental career. Hopefully there will be some medicare and social security left for you to survive on. It’s great to retire and not have to depend on social security.
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Danster
11/16/2020 03:56:24 pm
Hmmm....hard to say...has to be something unfortunate. No sex life?
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Reality Bites
11/16/2020 04:18:43 pm
It would be nice if people on this site were kinder to each other. That's what's missing in our country, and world, today. Really sad to see how the vitriol in the country is now reflected here, but that's to be expected when people are under stress, fiscally and socially. Absolutely nobody on this site is part of the elite club that will be unaffected by what's to come based on our political trajectory.
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Danster
11/16/2020 05:17:28 pm
Amen RB, well said. I agree. And with reduced demands on ourselves, a light hearted attitude, and a support team (like this group should be), and we can muddle along with dentistry.
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Reality Bites
11/18/2020 03:35:16 am
Danster, it's a shame that some on this site are so mean-spirited and abusive. Not worth reading or posting anymore. Good luck to you and the good people on this site.
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EM
11/16/2020 06:56:10 pm
I agree as well. We shouldn’t call each other liars and stupid. RB stated on 3/16 that the coronavirus was no more a serious health issue than the seasonal flu but we shouldn’t call him stupid. He is the most humble guy around.
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PFM
11/16/2020 07:52:01 pm
Couldn’t say it better myself EM
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Danster
11/17/2020 04:27:51 pm
I can say why dentistry sucks in 1 word:
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SeptoLido
11/17/2020 04:35:31 pm
Dentures aren't the problem. It's the damn patient that sucks. Think about it. For years and years, they hated dentists, said they hate dentists, they totally disregard their personal hygiene, then they expect us to perform a miracle by making 2 big teeth (an upper and lower denture) to work like God-given natural teeth. Dentistry sucks, and it always will. Dentures should strictly be a do-it-yourself concept. Dentists should never do them again. These ungrateful patients deserve to suffer.
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Unbelievable
11/18/2020 09:51:16 am
Glad to see you leave, RB. Look at your mean-spirited comments to me back in March 2020. You are “ too sensitive”. Take your pacifier and head home.
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dolph
11/24/2020 07:15:31 pm
Guys, I told you this was happening, and it's happening. For this, I received abuse and hatred here. But I will still keep posting as long as some of you get it and understand.
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SeptoLido
11/24/2020 07:19:51 pm
And you are exactly right. I agreed with you back then. We are screwed as a society thanks to liberals, especially demorats.
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agreed
11/25/2020 08:04:02 pm
Democrats and mainstream media exaggerate stats and severeness of the disease to control the society. DISGUSTED.
Maverick
11/27/2020 10:46:55 am
Oh my god. Shut up. It hasn't even been a year and you're already crying about "for the rest of lives." Nothing lasts forever. Literally nothing. Grow some balls, man. People out there are dying, children are going hungry and you, a whiny dentist, can't be bothered to wear a mask in public places? Get a clue!
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Danster
11/25/2020 06:47:26 am
I did not want to accept the reality Dolph, but you said it perfectly.
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Anonymous
11/26/2020 04:13:22 am
I like reading this blog. May I suggest rearranging the comments in descending order of time, or is there a way I can see new comments at the top rather than scroll down to the bottom?
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Small Business
11/26/2020 09:17:45 am
Has dentistry been impacted by the virus still now? Or has the business as in patient/collection volume been recovered now?
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Sad
11/26/2020 02:19:08 pm
Brace for the worst. this country is shutting down again
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SeptoLido
11/26/2020 02:47:22 pm
I think you are right about the shutdown, but what in particular made you say that?
Maverick
11/27/2020 10:45:06 am
That's an idiotic thing to say. Your orange clown was the one who literally pretended the virus didn't exist and knowingly lied about so take a seat.
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alert
11/27/2020 02:06:27 pm
*COMMUNIST DETECTED* where did the virus come from?
dd
11/26/2020 02:16:57 pm
Another dental factory opening in 2022
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dr m
11/27/2020 02:18:18 am
check out this facebook group: alternative careers for dentists
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Beaver Tail
11/29/2020 06:03:22 am
I'd like to here from this panel on the number one reason, in my opinion, people should think twice about going into this profession, student debt! I've had spoken to many young dentists who have 300, 400k plus student loans with 6 and 7% interest rates, double what mine was 20 years ago. By the way, 20 years ago was a much more normal interest rate environment. How did this happen? Who is responsible? How did so many people follow the herd over this fiscal cliff? If I were in that predicament, I'd have to carry a brown paper bag with me 24/7. When I have brought this up to some of my colleagues, they look at me as if I dont get it or I had leprosy. This in the long run damages us all, but especially the poor saps who have to pay it back! Any comments, suggestions are appreciated.
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Danster
11/30/2020 07:16:58 am
$400K Student debt
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Maverick
11/30/2020 01:25:08 pm
If you think America is a pure socialist state you need to check your meds. How tf are you going to blame an ASTRONOMICAL student loan debt on socialism? If it was actually socialism, your education would be free or extremely cheap. And if it was ACTUALLY socialism every American would have access to quality dental care which they DO NOT. Most low income Americans don't even get their teeth checked until it's too late. I'm not going to argue about what led to the sorry state of your profession but i WILL let you know that you're wrong concerning your anti-socialist propaganda. Get a clue.
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SeptoLido
11/30/2020 02:40:58 pm
Hey Maverick, Danster is EXACTLY right and you are 100% wrong. It's daddy-fucking, ass-sniffing, deplorable brain dead liberals like you that have your heads so deep into the small intestines of democrats that you are socially incompetent to make ANY accurate assessment of what's going on. I'm 31 years deep into this shitty profession and since around 2000 this occupation is not worth it anymore. I'm sure that Danster and I have 5 more stripes and 10 more medals on our uniforms than you. Wake up, you idiot, the jig is up and the imbecilic and repulsive liberals are only months away from ruining EVERYONE'S life. This is a FACT.
SAY NO TO SOCIALISM
11/30/2020 02:46:16 pm
Education is expensive. Astronomical student loan? TRUE BUT NO ONE FORCED U TO TAKE OUT LOANS. It is your fault. You took out $$$ to pay for the education you can't. SO DON'T EXPECT BIDEN OR OTHER SOCIALIST TO CANCEL IT FOR YOU. You knew what you were getting into so be responsible & pay it back. Education is free in socialist countries??? FALSE. Look at North Korea. Socialism never works in human society. It will make everyone poor. Raising taxes on the rich? it will prevent the middle class from becoming rich forever!!! Biden will squeeze the middle class and make everyone poor. Middle class will become poor and the low income class will remain poor forever. Who would want to work hard if everything has to be distributed equally?? Rich people became rich because they work hard NOT because they were lucky and lazy. I am also from low income family but I HATE when I see people who do nothing but complain. GROW UP AND WORK HARD.
SOCIALISM IS FLAWED
11/30/2020 02:52:15 pm
Do you think low-income people benefit from socialism? NO. In fact, the top 1% controls 99% of resources and pigs like u and me fight for the leftover in socialist countries. SOCIALISM IS EVIL. WAKE UP.
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Maverick
12/1/2020 11:46:50 am
Truly pathetic. Name calling like a child, yet you claim to be a dentist. Educated, but a complete fool through and through. We need less people like you in American society, that's for sure. In the end, good and rational minds will win out over your hateful kind.
Danster
11/30/2020 02:19:01 pm
My context is this:
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Maverick
12/1/2020 11:49:58 am
America is already a "Ruling Class" and "Us." It's called a corporatocracy and it's been in full force for years. Noone said Biden would save anyone. He's an old fool from the status quo. He's more of the same American trash but he stinks less than Trump. There's still much work to do to clean up this country. And, really, noone is crying for dentists making 105k a year instead of 170k a year lol. Privileged ass. People are dying and socialism will help those who you don't even bother to think about as you're so concerned with yourself.
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Danster
11/30/2020 02:33:59 pm
The question was was the high cost of the education worth it?
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Anti-socialism
11/30/2020 02:53:48 pm
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Danster
11/30/2020 03:11:02 pm
"Some Animals are more equal than others":
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BD
11/30/2020 04:07:30 pm
I’m not being sarcastic,SL, but just wondering where things went so wrong for you. I understand the new dentist dilemma but you had a lot of years in dentistry before the shit hit the fan. School loans, startup costs and PPO insurance were not really a problem until around 2005, maybe. The 1990s and early 2000s were good years for dentistry. You really should be close to retirement . You had Bush I, Clinton, BushII, Obama, Orangeman, and now Biden. I practiced from 1992 until 2016. I was always honest with people when they asked me if I would recommend a dental career and I did stop recommending it around 2009. It didn’t matter to most what I told them. They went ahead and got into debt and then joined all the PPO plans and then bitched. That doesn’t sound like socialism, it sounds like stupidity.
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SeptoLido
11/30/2020 04:15:58 pm
I'm actually at the top of my game as a dentist. My stress is WAY down from the past and quite frankly I'm probably the luckiest dentist in this group. I'm financially set. My debts from dentistry are only $100k. Despite that, I've been where so many are today and I'm still angry as to what/why they are going through even though I escaped the madness a few years ago. I still have empathy for those who have fought the fight but never recouped their investment.
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Danster
11/30/2020 05:44:55 pm
I apologize for being on a tear today.
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BD
11/30/2020 06:43:41 pm
Glad to hear SL and Danster. Today’s dental business is a different animal from not long ago, it does suck and that’s why I got out. The current system of astronomical debt followed by running a business on PPO plans will eventually explode. How do we inform future dentists of the tsunami that awaits them? They do not seem to want to hear the truth about dentistry until they are living it,and then it’s too late. Yes, the PPO plans were around in the early 1990s but at least where I live, only a minority joined them until the last 10-15 years. The new dentists came out and wouldn’t listen to any of the older dentists. They joined them to lure away patients. They got some of those patients,but also got stuck working for a handful of insurance companies. In a way they kind of did it to themselves because they didn’t listen. I can only speak about my experience and understand that everyone has a different take on it.
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SeptoLido
11/30/2020 07:17:11 pm
Has anyone ever wondered where the originator of this blog went to?
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Al Jinate
12/7/2020 09:57:04 am
Opinions? Will Biden and his followers close the country again and open the border?
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Dr. My 2 Cents
12/7/2020 11:33:15 am
Yes and yes.
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BM
12/7/2020 06:25:53 pm
It is amazing how much border wall can be built when gazillionaires only have to pay $750 dollars in taxes.
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Unbelievable
12/7/2020 08:10:21 pm
Joe Biden will likely not open the border but he will likely open up the cages at the border. I’m sure thankful that my ancestors weren’t caged when they came here from Ireland.
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Dr My 2 Cents
12/8/2020 06:43:22 am
Your ancestors likely came here legally, and were caged (quarantined) at Ellis Island until they could be processed. Many were sent back to their native country if they were sick, etc.
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Unbelievable
12/8/2020 07:33:44 am
My ancestors came here to get away from persecution by the English. You are sick if you think that Obama built these cages with the same intent that Trump used them for. How did all these kids get separated from parents if Trump did such a great job? Certain people of color are treated differently in this country than others and if you don’t see that I feel sorry for you.
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Dr My 2 Cents
12/8/2020 07:52:55 am
Trump used them to contain unaccompanied minors. It is known that sex-trafficking of minors is a problem, and these children would have been trafficked if they had been allowed to leave with the smugglers that brought them. They were brought for that explicit purpose--to be trafficked.
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Dr My 2 Cents
12/8/2020 08:26:58 am
Every one of those kids that was put in Obama's cages was an unaccompanied minor. If they let them go with their coyotes they would have been trafficked.
Dr My 2 Cents
12/8/2020 08:30:56 am
To reiterate: AOC didn't investigate; she wasn't even there. That video was exposed to be a lie.
Dr. My 2 Cents
12/8/2020 08:51:46 am
They got separated from their parents in Mexico and Central America, long before they got to the border. They were probably even abducted from their parents and brought to be trafficked.
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Unbelievable
12/8/2020 09:44:17 am
What is with AOC? I don’t care what she says anymore than what Ted Cruz or Jim Jordan say. I listen to the moderates and there aren’t many anymore. Joe Biden is a Moderate and he is no puppet to Bernie or AOC. Anyone who thinks he is a liberal should also think that Romney is a Trumper. Nothing will get accomplished in this country if we don’t seek middle ground. Joe Biden would tell you himself that he is far from perfect but he is real. Trump only cares about himself . He builds a wall not to organize the border but to build his base. He speaks against abortion not because it is the right thing to do but because it will get him votes from clueless voters who still think that he didn’t lose because they themselves are completely blind to his lies. Biden goes to church on Sundays not for a photo shoot but because he knows that there exists someone far greater than himself. Trump plays 18 on Sundays because he doesn’t think anyone is above him. Wake up!
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A Hygienist
12/8/2020 11:45:07 am
You're so condescending. First you call him/her "sick," then you tell him/her to "wake up." All because they don't agree with them. I don't either.
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Unbelievable
12/8/2020 01:10:33 pm
Moments ago Trump claimed again that he won the election. Counting every vote is the right thing to do and by the way in the USA every vote is counted. He cons people like you into thinking that we have rigged elections when we never have. He won 4 years ago and it was hard to believe but we still seated him as the president. He is against wars so much so that he evaded Vietnam and those who went were “ suckers”. His executive order on pharma is only good until he leaves office. Why did he wait so long to do it? What do you mean when you say “if you actually cared about children and people of color”? Who the hell are you? By the way, what is a hygienist doing on this site?
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A Hygienist
12/8/2020 01:43:12 pm
Lots of people were against the war in Vietnam. It was very unpopular after the initial draft. So what. Being against war is a good thing.
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Unbelievable
12/8/2020 03:10:54 pm
Trump evaded the draft. Most people(sane) are against war. If a man is a man and his country comes calling for him in a draft then he should serve his country with honor. We all have family members and friends who have died in crazy wars but those men still served and I honor them. Trump chickened out. Plain and simple and he deserves no honor for it. As for Obama on healthcare, I think he has a plan named after him and although unpopular by some, it has more favorable ratings than negative and has saved at least a few million lives in the last 6 years. If you got a better plan tell your congressman about it. As for this blog, I really don’t care if hygienists are on it as long as they realize that they might work in the same office space as dentists but that they have no clue as to the original 5 points at the start of this blog.
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A Hygienist
12/8/2020 03:24:28 pm
Who said anything about honoring Trump's war record???? Do you even read what I write before you respond to it?
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Al Jinate
12/8/2020 03:14:30 pm
I know some hygienists I would trust to repair my teeth more than some of the dentists who did some of the shitty dental work I have encountered.
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Unbelievable
12/8/2020 03:54:49 pm
If you trust a hygienist more than a dentist to fix your teeth you must be nuts or you wear dentures. Where do you folks get your news? You are too hilarious AJ. Wait until you see all the totally innocent swamp creatures getting pardoned for being completely innocent of any wrong doing. Shouldn’t need a pardon if you are innocent,right? You guys should all join Space Force or maybe just wait for the kool aid to wear off.
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A Hygienist
12/8/2020 04:23:43 pm
What he said was simply a figure of speech. Big deal. He was just letting me know I'm welcome and he values my opinion. Don't get your undies in a bunch. (Another figure of speech.)
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Unbelievable
12/8/2020 06:25:18 pm
Hygienist, have you read thru this blog? If you do you will notice that most bloggers here are Trump supporters. I am entitled to an opinion as well. Apparently when I disagree with others I am wrong. I am just stating the obvious. Trump was fired and he lost. If you voted for him your vote lost as well. He needs to move on and his base does as well. As to not wanting a moderate, how can COVID relief, infrastructure, etc. get done with those far left and those far right duking it out every minute. If you want to pay clowns on both sides with your tax money then that is your right but I would rather see compromise and accomplish things.
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BM
12/8/2020 07:50:12 pm
The 6-3 conservative Supreme Court won’t even hear his bullshit case. Welcome back America!!
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PFM
12/8/2020 07:53:52 pm
Amen!!
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Lqtm
12/9/2020 06:54:02 am
Y’all so funny. Thank GOD I dodged this career
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Lqtm
12/18/2020 03:56:31 pm
what field are you in
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qwerty
1/10/2021 07:58:21 pm
Wow this blog changed my views of dentistry. My parent wanted me to persue dentistry over airline pilot( my passion) im now heading to flight school.
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SeptoLido
1/13/2021 10:11:48 am
Extremely wise decision. I wish I had been able to be warned against dentistry in 1985. I've never liked being a dentist from day one.
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A Dental Assistant
1/20/2021 05:07:56 pm
I'm so glad I came across this blog post. I am a pre dental student working as a dental assistant and I graduated with a public health degree about a year ago. I am currently studying for the DAT and was planning on applying to dental schools this summer, but my experience of one year of working as a dental assistant has really made me have second thoughts.
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A Hygienist
1/21/2021 05:59:59 am
Interesting post. I think the dentists that really love dentistry today are the ones that graduated years ago, so now have no debt whatsoever and are making a good income with relatively minimal effort. They're established, so they don't need to beg for reviews, probably aren't even taking new patients, and can practice at a slower pace, like the dentist in her 60s that you shadowed.
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Danster
1/25/2021 01:19:31 pm
Your pediatric dentist boss gave you some great advice.
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Teeth92
1/25/2021 03:28:19 pm
Excellent advice by Danster.
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confused
2/21/2021 04:01:10 pm
I have zero passion for dentistry. Not sure if I am gonna like it or not... Can't really wrap my head around 400k price tag either.... But what should I do with my bio degree you know lol just came here to vent
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Dentt
2/22/2021 12:19:35 pm
same! graduated with a bio degree and the job options are terrible. It's starting to feel like the only way to still end up with a comfortable living is to continue with dentistry
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confused
2/23/2021 07:56:25 pm
Majoring in bio was literally the worst decision of my life... I hope you figure out what you want in your life. I applied in 2020 cycle. The cheapest option for me is 400k. (OOS public school). Tuition is CRAZY especially NYU (560k before compounding interest).
Dentt
2/22/2021 12:37:00 pm
I am applying to dental school this cycle and have made up my mind that I will only attend if I receive one the (very rare) full ride scholarships. Or a scholarship that keeps the cost of attendance between 150k-200k. Without it, I see myself being as miserable as everyone else in this field. Debt is very crippling and a lot of 22 year old recent graduates don't understand that. Also, I am one of the few people that doesn't see the appeal of all the stress it takes to own a practice. I genuinely believe that if I go into public health dentistry or even academia after practicing for a few years I will be better off. I am really grateful for all the insight that some of the dentists on this forum give. It has allowed me to do research and reconsider the field I am going into. At least if I still choose to make the decision, I can be strategic and not go in completely blindsided.
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Danster
2/23/2021 03:10:02 pm
Its doable. I still maintain Dentistry is a very noble profession. The difficulties are such that only the insiders understand. And forget trying to explain it.
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hi
2/23/2021 08:00:08 pm
"drive an old paid for car, and live in a small rental house for at least 5 years until you are stable."
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mmm
2/23/2021 07:48:24 pm
4 more years + 400k debt (this is considered cheap nowadays) to become a dentist? You can live a very comfortable life (financially) by pursuing other careers. Pre-dents often say "the sky is the limit" in the dentistry but thats the funniest thing I've ever heard LOL that phrase could apply to any field. If you are a bio major, getting a 2nd bachelors degree in finance or CS might be better than going into dentistry.
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Danster
2/24/2021 06:24:16 am
Agree with both of you. Dentistry is tough and expensive. Its hard mentally and physically and cost a fortune - both money and time for the degree. Most of the older folks on this blog have made common mistakes- thinking "If I can just get the degree, I can live the high level I deserve". I personally believe its best to stay lean, live below your means, and hammer the debt for a period of time- 5-10 years, and then, cruise along is the best plan.
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SeptoLido
3/2/2021 07:31:29 am
Dentistry is the stone of Sisyphus.
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Big Mistake
3/3/2021 08:59:52 am
There's not enough negative words I can use to explain just how much I hate being a dentist. It's a lifetime of Hell with no eligibility for parole. Financial trap with no relief in sight.
SeptoLido
3/3/2021 09:29:14 am
Patient: You have a terrible chairside manner doctor. Why are you cocking an attitude with me?
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Stuart
3/6/2021 06:36:08 am
The best thing about being a dentist is how much you appreciate the life you have left once you have stopped being one.
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Danster
3/8/2021 03:24:57 pm
Similarly Stuart, I love that feeing of backing away from the office on the last work day of each week. Its like getting a breath after being under water way too long. Come to think of it, I am about to go home and I suddenly feel much better.
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Dentists suck
3/11/2021 05:27:24 am
Why dentists suck:
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Dr. No
3/12/2021 08:16:44 am
From a 25 year veteran dentist. Do not go to dental school unless someone else is going to pay for it. It is a life ruining financial decision. If you're still in your freshman year of DDS/DMD school, drop out now and do something else. If you're in your 2nd, 3rd, 4th year....I'm truly sorry. And, do not even consider going further into debt to do a specialty. I'm pretty happy with the way my career has gone....but, holy hell, it's terrible now. And getting worse. You've been warned.
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Steve
3/12/2021 10:37:09 am
Lol Dr. No is probably a dentist getting paid on the lower end of the spectrum which is why he feels that way. If you can keep up with new technology and volume, you can still make a lot of money in this career, especially if you own. Just a different landscape to adapt to but still very doable to make 150k+ and really save up to pay off debt even at today's costs.
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hellooo
3/12/2021 02:26:06 pm
New technology is NOT free
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Dentists suck
3/12/2021 12:27:11 pm
LOL Steve is probably from NYU recruitment trying to suck in more sheep deep into debt. LOL...Nice try.
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Teeth92
3/12/2021 02:41:58 pm
Yep, sounds like a recruiter. What’s sad is DDS think making 150k+ is a lot of money
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agreed
3/12/2021 06:15:31 pm
software engineers make 150k+ in their 20s with ZERO debt.
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hi
3/12/2021 06:15:03 pm
How is the job market for new dentists?
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Predentt
3/13/2021 03:02:50 pm
Is dentistry worth pursing if you don't want to own a practice? I worked for a dentist for a year and he seemed stress about hiring people, the costs of equipment needed for the practice, and advertising and attracting new patients. So I would think that working for someone else is less stressful but it seems like associating and corporate has its disadvantages as well.
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SeptoLido
3/13/2021 05:39:50 pm
I'm going to say this for the LAST TIME. Do not pursue dentistry for a career. There is nothing good about it. NOTHING!!!!!!. Quit asking. It is a horrible nightmare. A coo-coo clock repairman is happier than a dentist. Do anything to avoid being a damn dentist! PLEASE!
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dont be mad at pre-dents
3/13/2021 06:45:47 pm
most pre-dents majored in some useless shit.... bio, psych, nutrition... you name it.... what are they gonna do with those majors? they are desperate because they have no other choice
reality
3/13/2021 06:56:37 pm
associate dentist = indentured servant. assistants don't respect you. owner dentist doesnt respect you. office manager doesn't respect you. Associate is the bottom of the hierarchy in a dental office.
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Dentists suck
3/14/2021 12:52:44 pm
Respect? You talking about respect? It's a job man. Quit talking about respect. You probably got picked on in school.
Dentists suck
3/14/2021 12:41:35 pm
Dentistry is worth pursuing if you lack morals, want just money, and like being a con artist. Go for it! And then there are the few real dentists. Fake ones gotta go and will get sued!
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Roger Roger
3/14/2021 01:04:16 pm
In reply to Dentist Sucks: It seems you take personal pride in revealing what an ass-sniffing,daddy-fucking, prick that you are. You apparently have nothing but HOG CUM between your ears, you bigoted, insignificant and ridiculous sack of shit. Hopefully you're killed in a metal-twisting, fiery car crash, you cunt-faced, repulsive asshole.
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Dentists suck
3/14/2021 01:15:20 pm
Some imbecile apparently got triggered. Why? Because the truth hurts. Most dentists are morons. They couldn't make it as real doctors. So now they are coning the public and want respect. LOL. Hey buddy, where do you work? I'll paid you a visit.
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Roger Roger
3/14/2021 01:28:15 pm
Fuck off DS. You're living proof that Indians fucked buffalo in the ass, you cum-drinking cretinous jackass. I would call you a moron but that would be an insult to morons. You need to be dragged out of your mommy's basement and publicly horse-whipped. It would be awesome for you to die from an abcessed tooth, you father-fucking faggot.
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Dentists suck
3/14/2021 01:34:52 pm
Very tough online i see. lol. You probably got picked on in school i can tell. You are the type that should not become a dentist. So why don't you tell me where you work? Tough guy.
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A Hygienist
3/15/2021 06:24:49 am
Dentists suck, I'm curious. What profession are you in?
Roger Roger
3/15/2021 06:28:09 am
Most likely Dentists Suck is a low-life, jealous coo-coo clock repairman. His IQ is less than the little wood bird.
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A Hygienist
3/15/2021 06:41:56 am
@Roger Roger, I think so.
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Dentists suck
3/15/2021 03:03:29 pm
I'm the low life? Have you looked in the mirror lately? Look at all the hatred and bile you spewed. Not to mention you con people for a living. But i am the low life. haha. Talk about pot calling the kettle black. Unbelievable.
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SeptoLido
3/15/2021 03:31:19 pm
Roger Roger is whipping Dentists Suck's mangy ass. Back to eating my popcorn.
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Danster
3/16/2021 01:46:29 pm
Interesting exchange.
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drillnfill33
3/16/2021 11:22:04 pm
Hello everyone, I currently am working in private practice and have been for almost 4 years. Recently, I started working at an office with my best friend and I feel he has gotten a bit jealous of my skills. I do sedation, endodontics, and place implants at a basic level and my friend does not do any of those procedures. Long story short, its caused a lot of hostility in our relationship and I am wanting to leave the practice. Because my friend and I do not get along, the rude patients, and just the shear difficulty of dentistry I am considering changing career paths for a while. Previously, my friend and I had considered being partners in the beginning when I started working here (July 2020) but I just do not see it anymore. I am currently just working as an associate but a job offer for a veterans hospital in my hometown came up with a starting salary of 195K -205K a year, 13 paid sick days, 11 paid holidays, and 26 paid vacation days.
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Dentists suck
3/19/2021 05:14:25 pm
@drillnfill33
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Doc
3/17/2021 08:27:58 am
Sounds like a no brainer decision so far. Serving those who served for all of us. Our veterans deserve dentists who are especially gifted at what they do. You can always leave after a couple of years but you might be surprised that you stay for a long duration. What about health insurance and retirement plans?
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drillnfill33
3/18/2021 09:05:52 am
Yes, they do have health insurance, retirement plan, and dental insurance. My ultimate goal though is still to own my own business because I worry that I will not be able to do the kind of dentistry I want to do there such as a lot of implants, endodontics, fixed pros and sedation but who knows I could be wrong. I am also worried that my speed and efficiency could suffer and that could make me not be as efficient if I want to go back to private practice. But I am very interested in helping veterans for what they did for all of us. Who knows, like you said I could end up staying.
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Danster
3/18/2021 06:56:41 pm
I wouldn’t walk to the VA job.
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Had Enough
3/18/2021 07:04:48 pm
Dentures should be banned from the dental menu. Most horrible concept ever conceived and derived. It should be a DIY only option. Then when they don't fit, sue yourself for the failure they are. No dentist should EVER commit to making dentures. It is a failed concept and should be illegal to make them. Too many dentists are committing suicide because of the stress that denture patients cause them.
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Dentists suck
3/19/2021 05:16:15 pm
@Had Enough,
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Stock Photo
3/19/2021 05:26:20 pm
Dentists Suck : In your case , TMJ doesn't apply since you are slack-jawed faggot. I can tell you are an atheist because of your hatred and bigotry.
Dentists suck
3/19/2021 05:37:41 pm
@Stock Photo,
Roger Roger
3/19/2021 05:47:28 pm
Dentists Suck needs to be publicly horse whipped to the bone. I would just shoot him in the noggin.
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Dentists suck
3/19/2021 05:55:53 pm
Oldest trick in the book. Refuse to acknowledge the problem. Pretend it doesn't exist. All in our head right? haha.
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SeptoLido
3/19/2021 06:18:10 pm
DS is definitely an idiot. He needs to be a cadaver for the next dental school anatomy class, but with no heart, brain, or spinal cord the students will get an understanding of what an asshole looks like.
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Giving Up
3/20/2021 06:57:11 pm
I've decided to kill myself. After failing with 2 dental offices and 2 marriages with enormous debt I've decided there is nothing left to live for. Good luck guys. Hopefully dentistry won't kill you like it has done for me. Goodbye.
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J
3/20/2021 09:31:02 pm
@GivingUp Not sure if you're kidding about suicide, so just in case, will chime in.
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Giving Up
3/21/2021 08:09:50 am
Thanks. I'm not going to kill myself.
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Dentists suck
3/29/2021 02:44:19 pm
If dentistry is giving you so much headache, why don't you just quit? Find something less stressful. There's no shame in filing BK. I'd rather go BK then rip people off for a living. Now that is shameful. Over 90% of dentists should be ashamed of themselves.
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Dentists suck
3/29/2021 02:50:39 pm
Fact of the matter is that dentists do cause tmj, And they do it deliberately. Once you have tmj, the goal is not to fix you because there is no money in fixing you. The goal is to milk you dry. haha. That is why you need to lawyer up when seeing a dentist. Now are we going to have an honest discussion about this issue? Or pretend it doesn't exist? lol. Buncha con artists.
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Dentists Suck
3/29/2021 03:05:01 pm
I'm a piece of shit. I suck my daddy's dick as I'm a pathetic cretinous ass-wipe.. My IQ and room temperature are the same value. I have absolutely no positive redeemable qualities. Dentists are not crooks but I ripped a dentist off by not paying my dental bills for years and I finally got sued. I'm living proof that Indians fucked buffalo in the ass. I am a pathetic and useless sack of shit and I take personal pride in making sure everyone knows it.
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Dentists suck
3/29/2021 03:21:47 pm
@Roger Roger,
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Dentists suck
3/30/2021 03:27:42 pm
Some of you came to the wrong blog. It says right on top Dentistry Sucks. It doesn't read Dentistry Rocks. So you trolls need to play hide and seek in the woods where you belong. Not on a computer typing random things on the internet. Since Dentistry sucks, the most sucky thing about dentistry is TMJ. Dentists do cause tmj problems by deliberately reducing posterior vertical dimension. How is that accomplished? By getting rid of the supporting back molars especially if you have a mild curve of spee. i.e.: getting rid of cusps on the second molars. Or just file back teeth down. Either way, these methods can cause tmj problems by reducing posterior vertical dimension. That's if you have a normal class I occlusion. So folks, beware of lowlife dentists. Some of you might decide to do something else instead of becoming a dentist. So this is good to know when going to see dentists. Don't let them mess with your back molars. Obviously, the most common cause of tmj is deep class II overbite malocclusion. It essentially pushes the lower jaw too far back. You need to read the authority of curing tmj. The one and only, the greatest dental clinician in the last century imo, the "Father of Functional Orthodontics" John W Witzig. Read his three volume text young people. Volume III deals with tmj. Cause and cure. Don't be fooled by lowlife dentists. Most dentists are miserable, hateful, and very vindictive. When they get a chance, they will screw you. Roger Roger is a perfect example of this. Full of hate this guy is. Look at all the nasty things he writes. Good luck to you young dentists. But the future aint looking bright. There will be lawsuits coming imo. People can't be fooled all the time. Some of the time maybe. But not all the time. I'd be suicidal too if my only choice to make money is rip people off. 99% of tmj dentists do it on a regular basis. lol. How they do it? Nobody knows. lol.
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Dentist Suck
3/30/2021 03:53:00 pm
I tried to graduate from 10th grade but I never could get past the 8th. I am now a professional coo-coo clock repairman. I get on match.com but the only match suggestion I get is a photo of my greased up left hand. I really should get a new psycho doctor because the one I'm going to ain't doing me no good. I wish my daddy would come home from work VERY soon because I need a good fuck. My dog is really getting tired of me fucking her. Dentists are such incredible souls. They are very honest and hard working individuals.
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loan
3/31/2021 08:41:47 pm
:( refund my tuition
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hi
4/1/2021 03:13:09 pm
did anybunny graduate with massive loans? how u doing
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Petey
4/1/2021 03:40:18 pm
Currently working as a dentist in a clinic with a psychologically abusive boss and difficult patients. I sometimes seriously consider it would be better off if I were dead. At least then I don't have to suffer anymore. Every day I have to struggle to get up and get out of bed, knowing I will be abused in a hostile environment from all aspects until I go home with a broken spirit and absolutely zero confidence. Oh did I mention the close to half a million dollars of student loan debt. What future is there in dentistry?
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Sad
4/1/2021 04:53:23 pm
why did you borrow ~500k to become a dentist?... Did you really enjoy your shadowing experience?...
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Dentists suck
4/1/2021 06:45:01 pm
500K debt? You need to break a lot of teeth. There's no way you can pay it back.
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scam
4/1/2021 08:08:46 pm
"The sky is the limit" is the funniest thing I've ever heard....seriously? Pre-dent kids say it all the time on SDN lol. So naive. So immature.
Dentists suck
4/1/2021 06:41:54 pm
Honest dentist? LOL. You find me an honest dentist and i'll find you an honest politician. Dentists are by nature liars. Just like politicians. If dentists suddenly become honest, the whole industry would collapse. LOL. Fact of the matter is, most people don't require much dental work. Some do. Most don't. The only way to make money is to create problems. Recently there was a Wisconsin dentist accused of breaking patient teeth deliberately. Honest my behind! lol. He was a dumb criminal because he probably did it on a large scale. Got the Fed's attention. Guys like Roger Roger is a smart criminal. He needs to keep his criminal enterprise on a "down low." lol. So the Fed won't be up his butt.
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Roger Roger
4/1/2021 06:53:57 pm
Did you enjoy your holiday today, you fool?
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Dentists suck
4/1/2021 07:22:10 pm
Hey scumbag, so nice of you to ask. I am having a great time. What about you? Enjoy breaking your patients' teeth? :) Just be cautious, the Fed might be watching. :) You won't last a day in the slammer.
Moderator
4/1/2021 07:46:12 pm
Dentists Suck: Why are you here belching out your lies, tirades, and vitriol? You must be an atheist based on your ugly comments. BTW, Wisconsin is highly infested with atheists like you. Crime rates and the misery index are skyrocketing because of nasty human filth like you, knuckle-dragging your way through as an embarrassing imbecilic moron. Wisconsin (the arm pit of America) is where that hate faction called the FFRF is founded and located. Atheists like you are trouble makers and you need to be publicly horse whipped to the bone for being the Satanbot you are. Now go to Hell where you belong you belly-aching body of shame and disgrace. Never let anyone tell you that you have any redeemable qualities, you mangy moron.
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Dentists suck
4/1/2021 08:20:28 pm
@Roger Roger,
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Roger Roger
4/1/2021 08:33:14 pm
But if the dentist had killed you, all charges would have been lifted and he would have only had to serve 3 months of house arrest. Go fuck yourself with a condom, you ignorant idiot>>> DS.
Dentists suck
4/2/2021 02:59:51 pm
I'm not an atheist, like some people say. I'm a hardcore fundamentalist Christian and the only books I've ever read in my life are the Left Behind series and the Book of Revelation. I never went to college because all my life I've been told the world is going to come to an end, and I believed it. I learned that science was of Satan and that all books, except the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation were Satanic. I never worried about a career because I knew that I would be Raptured before I graduated from high school. Besides, what could I study? Everything was of Satan. That's all my parents ever said: everything was Satanic. I was bullied in school, but I told myself that my bullies were going to be left behind with Satan. Now I'm in my late twenties, and due to my personality disorder, I don't have a girlfriend, no friends, no career (remember, the world is coming to an end), and I can only do the most entry-level of jobs, but I keep getting fired. You can see how uneducated I am because I keep writing LOL and Ha ha ha. It burns me up that all the people I thought were going to go to Hell are much more successful than me. I thought they were going to be left behind when the Rapture came, but instead, I've been left behind. You can see the rage I carry with me in my posts. I'm very angry. I lie and make up fake statistics, like how 99% of dentists are dishonest, without giving a source. I do the same thing about other professions on a website for mechanics, one for computer programmers, and one for optometrists. I'm very angry at myself. True confession. I'm going to hit submit before I lose my nerve. Bye now.
@Dentists Suck
4/7/2021 01:43:18 pm
Please, please, please don't hurt any humans or animals in your rage. There are resources out there and people who can help. Stay positive. :) :) :)
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@Dentists suck
4/7/2021 07:19:03 pm
haha sounds like a guy who wished he was a rich dentist like us, we're lucky to be in this profession and you guys know it. I'd much rather do this than many other jobs out there.
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Dentists suck
4/8/2021 05:05:28 pm
No wonder this industry is going down the tubes. Bunch of dentists are trolling people online in their free time instead of honing in their craft.
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@Dentists Suck
4/8/2021 06:57:32 pm
If these are facts please cite your sources. And don't say that you are speaking from experience. That isn't facts, it's anecdotes.
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Roger Roger
4/8/2021 05:11:16 pm
Dentists Suck: You're lying again.
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Dentists suck
4/8/2021 05:21:33 pm
@Roger Roger,
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Dentists suck
4/8/2021 05:19:03 pm
Fact #6: Over 90% of the public don't know what causes tmj. I have seen many people having this problem. My close family members. They all have it. They just don't know that missing posterior vertical dimension can cause the problems they have. Similar symptoms include: fatigue, lack of concentration, and very self conscious. The self conscious is something that they all have. If you've seen one with heavily reduced posterior vertical dimension, you will know some of these symptoms. And they all have weak enamel and lots of fillings. 99% of dentists know the problem if you've been practicing for a while. They refuse to treat or do not acknowledge the problem. The idea is not to fix you. The idea is to keep you coming back. :) Returning customers are always good customers. That is why you must lawyer up and make dentists do what you want. Refuse? lol. Good luck with that.
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Roger Roger
4/8/2021 05:28:19 pm
DS: You suffer from anal suckage . The cure is for you to take a loaded pistol, shove it up into your lower jaw, and pull the trigger to blast your noggin wide open to release all of that hog cum out from between your fucking ears.
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SeptoLido
4/8/2021 05:32:30 pm
RR: Dont feed the troll. DS has serious mental damage. I agree, it needs lead poisoning immediately.
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@Dentists Suck
4/8/2021 07:17:36 pm
You cite statistics and say they are facts. If they are facts, give your sources. Saying it happened to you and your family isn't facts, it's anecdotes.
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Dentists suck
4/10/2021 03:27:33 pm
DAT questions. True or false. Fact or fake news.
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Dentists suck
4/10/2021 03:33:55 pm
DAT question. Difficulty Level: High
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SeptoLido
4/16/2021 08:39:49 am
Difficulty Level: Very Easy
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Roger Roger
4/16/2021 09:46:16 am
Bwahahaha. There is no wrong answer! Just kill the prick. Extra painful techniques give you bonus points. I hate people like DS. DS is a dick sucker with VD. He also probably has B.O.
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Commerce Series
4/19/2021 11:57:50 am
My clinic jacket says , "GOD" where the name should be.
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Dentists suck
4/19/2021 08:10:12 pm
Who is Dr. John W. Witzig?
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Dentists suck
4/19/2021 08:17:48 pm
Couldn't care less if you hate me. All i did was stated facts. You hate facts. Con artists hate facts. Facts would ruin the con job. haha. The only way for the con job to succeed is if your patients are ignorant without facts. Dentistry is a con industry. That's also a fact. 90% of dentists have to lie to make money. LOL. Do us all a favor, go do something else more productive and honorable instead of ripping people off and causing them health issues. Here's a profession that suits you Roger Roger: go collect cans. That's honest work. Stop ripping people off!
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SeptoLido
4/19/2021 08:29:33 pm
Hey folks. I've hired an I.T. specialist that I hope can permanently shut D.S. down from this forum. His rat droppings and his troll activity will not go unpunished.
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Dentist sucks
4/24/2021 07:45:27 pm
Apparently you don't follow your own advice. Do me a favor take your lowlife colleague Roger Roger and head back to the woods. Don't damage the trees while you hop around. They are more precious than you. Tell me before you go how many teeth have you broken so far? How many people have you caused tmj?
Dr. XYZ
4/21/2021 06:14:39 am
I'm looking for a new lab. Any suggestions?
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SeptoLido
4/21/2021 06:27:34 am
Barksdale lab in the Huntsville, AL area.
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Dr XYZ
4/21/2021 09:38:43 am
Thanks, SeptoLido. I'll definitely check into them. After I've been using a lab for a while they get comfortable and give my cases to a newbie who gets the margins all wrong.
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SeptoLido
4/21/2021 09:59:23 am
You're welcome. As with any new lab, you may have to work with them a couple of months to tweak their work to your liking. I had to and my work was flawless after that.
Edmond Dentes
4/21/2021 11:36:55 am
I have been lurking around this blog post for over a year now and have really appreciated the different contributions about the frustration of this profession. I am really feeling down recently. The thing is, I just can’t summon the energy to care anymore. I have changed my schedule to be working as little as possible and I don’t even care now about paying off the loans or trying to achieve the “American Dream”. Dentistry is one of those professions where you have proverbially trapped yourself in a gilded cage (the “gilded” part is even debatable at this point). At least with many other professions, assuming you didn’t take on a mountain of debt to achieve them, you can transition to something else more easily. Dentistry requires a commitment of so much time and money that by the time you realize that it sucks it is too late.
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SeptoLido
4/21/2021 11:41:00 am
Totally well said. You summed up this shitty profession accurately.
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XYZ
4/21/2021 12:52:15 pm
True, but lately stories have been popping up on my news feed about investment bankers and those in the finance industry. Apparently, those people work about 100 hours a week. You read that number correctly, 100! They have extra clothes and a mattress in their office to take naps. There is a huge burnout in that industry, as well.
Dentists suck
4/24/2021 07:55:18 pm
"Dentistry requires a commitment of so much time and money that by the time you realize that it sucks it is too late."
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Dentists suck
4/24/2021 08:02:21 pm
@XYZ,
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worried
4/22/2021 07:42:31 pm
Scared of saturation... i was a pre-pharm in undergrad but switched to dentistry just because of saturation issues... Dental school tuition is going up every year even during the pandemic... not sure if dds/dmd degree is worth 450k.
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Xyz
4/25/2021 09:58:41 am
@Worried. Join the military or agree to work 4 or 5 years in an underserved area in exchange for tuition reimbursement.
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Dentists suck
5/7/2021 01:43:34 pm
."..not sure if dds/dmd degree is worth 450k."
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Dr Strangelove
4/25/2021 10:52:20 am
Just curious. Does anyone have experience with dental therapists? Are they allowed in your state? How has it been working? Does anyone here employ one?
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X950
4/28/2021 06:42:05 pm
Forget dentistry, buy bitcoin!!! I did years ago and finally getting out!!!
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Xyz
4/29/2021 12:19:23 pm
Or go into HVac. My nephew isn't even 30 years old. He went to school for HVac, worked for someone for a few years, then went into business for himself. He has only a couple of employees, does quick, good work, and nets about $180 K a year. I'm very proud of him.
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SeptoLido
4/29/2021 01:24:03 pm
And people don't hate HVAC technicians like they hate dentists and they don't assume they are automatically rich. Dentists Suck will blame your nephew for sabotaging the air conditioning unit to cause it to lose Freon on purpose LOL
Dentists suck
5/7/2021 01:39:32 pm
@SeptoLido
@Dentists suck
5/7/2021 03:28:57 pm
Fact: you are a liar. You don't have a guy "working at the house." You have a guy working at Mama's house. What's he doing, removing you and your Mama's bugout shelter now that the world didn't end? Fact.
Dentists Suck
4/29/2021 02:59:30 pm
@SeptoLido,
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I need advice
4/29/2021 04:26:16 pm
I got accepted to a rather expensive dental school but i am not thrilled at all. I don't think I will like the career. I simply applied because I didn't think I will get a decent-paying job with my bio degree. I absolutely hate biology (I got good grades but I am no longer interested) I am 23. I feel absolutely clueless about where my life is going. I don't want to attend but I HATE to disappoint everyone in my life including my family.
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Xyz
4/29/2021 05:12:27 pm
If you aren't excited about dentistry now, you probably won't be after going through dental school. Plus, you'll come out with lots of debt, that you'll have to pay back. If you don't think you have options now...
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SeptoLido
5/7/2021 10:57:17 am
Many times I've had some ungrateful patients say that they think it's being greedy for me to be paid $200 to extract an abscessed tooth when it only took me 5 minutes to get it out. I tell them it's taken me years to become an efficient, on time, painless dentist. So you owe me for the years, not the minutes (××you belligerent son of a bitch××).
Dentists suck
5/7/2021 01:53:23 pm
haha...you are 23. What the hell do you know about the real world? Doesn't matter if you like dentistry. You like giving false opinions deliberately? Because you have to in order to make money. If you like that, then do it. Over 90% of dentists do it for a living. Scott Charmoli was brazen because everyone in the industry does it. They all lie and break teeth. He just didn't think he will get caught. lol What a moron. .
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@Dentists suck
5/11/2021 09:09:40 am
Fact: anyone taking advice from the likes of you will end up with no career, no marketable skills, no money, no girlfriend, and living with their parents. Fact.
Dentists suck
5/20/2021 05:59:34 pm
"...no marketable skills..."
Courtney
5/10/2021 02:18:20 pm
I'm 50. Do not go to dental school if it costs for than $200,000. You will ruin your life. None of my kids are going to dental school. I explicitly forbade it.
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XYZ
5/10/2021 02:58:28 pm
Good advice, Courtney. Even if they love dentistry, there are so many drawbacks that your kids don't realize. Some of them is no mobility (once you have a practice you have to stay in that town), another is if you want to change careers it's so hard. Also, you don't really know if you'll have the manual dexterity to do the job, until you are quite far into the program.
SeptoLido
5/7/2021 10:50:58 am
No one knows true happiness until they become a dentist..... .. then it's too late.
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xyz
5/7/2021 11:18:16 am
Tell them upfront what it will cost. If they don't like it send them packing, pain or not.
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Dentists suck
5/7/2021 01:56:37 pm
"No one knows true happiness until they become a dentist..... .. then it's too late."
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@Dentists suck
5/7/2021 03:20:47 pm
Fact: you are an even bigger fool because you did nothing with your life except wait for the end of the world. Fact. Your real enemies are your mother and Harold Camping. Fact.
Toto bear
5/20/2021 06:46:27 pm
@Dentists suck: Go fuck yourself, you cum spit.
will dentistry follow the path of pharmacy?
5/14/2021 10:39:06 am
will dentistry follow the path of pharmacy?
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Dentist Person
5/17/2021 12:39:01 pm
I'm on month 5 of my locums assignment, it's supposed to go another few months. I'm so sick of living in a hotel. The staff at work is so mind numbingly boring and stupid, I can't listen to their baby daddy and bill collector conversations anymore. I bring headphones just to cut the amount of their babble that enters my brain in between patients.
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Mary Smith
5/19/2021 08:01:10 pm
This is so terrible! Please do something else or you are going to harm yourself. Even if it's for smaller pay. Do you have to keep up a certain lifestyle? Is that why you are doing this? Sell your house, move to a small mortgage one, have your kids take out student loans. Life is not supposed to be like this. What are we. In hell?
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Dentists suck
6/1/2021 02:45:01 pm
"...Life is not supposed to be like this. What are we. In hell? "
Courtney
5/20/2021 12:55:33 pm
It's probably best just to end it all now.
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Dentists suck
5/20/2021 06:01:54 pm
"...I am a great dentist, I have 12 years of experience..."
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Dentists suck
6/1/2021 02:42:27 pm
So when was the last time you checked? When was the last time anyone of you on this forum checked? Answer: never. But you claim to be a great dentist didn't you? Don't fool yourself cause you are not fooling anybody. Why is the tm joint the most important component of dentistry? Since you like to read books. Read it up. Dr. John Witzig wrote three volumes. Volume III deals with this question. There's a co author isn't there? Why didn't i mention his name? Cause over 90% of you guys lie for a living. That's why. Experience has taught me not to trust ANY dentists. Why is that? Most of you guys are criminals. You choose your targets. You know who to con who not to con. You prey on the ignorant, the naive, and the desperate. That's pathetic. Guess what, they're mostly women. And you think you're a man? LOL. Don't make me laugh. I expect a book report from you in a month.
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XYZ
5/20/2021 02:21:44 pm
I agree. If it's that bad, quit. Declare bankruptcy, discharge your debts, scale down, and do something else.
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John
5/26/2021 05:29:44 pm
I understand that there are some unfortunate exceptions, but for the majority of us, we have to recognize that we have it better than most people, making an above average salary able to support ourselves, regardless of the debt. The work-life balance is good too and can honestly be a lot better than a lot of corporate jobs that require 60-80 hours per week.
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Dentists suck
6/1/2021 02:50:45 pm
I got a friend like that. All he wanted was a "cushy" job. What does that mean? Make big bucks while doing the absolute minimum. LOL. Most dimwits think like this. And most dimwits flock to dentistry for this reason. And guess what, he's not very good at what he does.
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Roger Roger
6/10/2021 10:08:52 am
Dentists Suck: You lost me at "I got a friend". There's no way a hog-fucking cunt like you has a friend.
FinishedFemaleDentist
6/4/2021 08:14:45 am
I am a 40 year old female general dentist. I've experienced 3 failed relationships. I have no children. I still owe $120,000 in student loans. My partners are self-centered a-holes that don't care to train staff. I have to see 25 patients per day to make a decent profit. I've taken 1 week off in the last 3 years. I drive an old Saturn and a 4 year old 4Runner. It's not stress.....it's hoplessness. I used to go to the gym 6 days a week....now I've gained substantial weight. I'm pretty sure I'm losing my hair. I sleep about 4 hours a night (on and off). I can't quit because of the student loans, business loan, partnership contract. My sister is an accountant (4 year degree) who makes more than me and loves her job.
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Dentists suck
6/12/2021 10:22:12 am
To be honest, i don't feel sorry for you. I should but i don't. I thought women would be more compassionate which was why i sought out female dentists. 1 just wanted my money but not fix the problem. Another wanted to drill on my good back molar. She essentially wanted to reduce my posterior vertical dimension. From what i've read, dentists were taught in school not to mess with vertical dimension. She wanted to deliberately mess with my vertical dimension. I was young and naive, had no money, and didn't know the law. That's why she was able to get away with it. She probably went bk. Hurt someone just before filing bk. That's the way to do it. The female that just wanted my money and not fix the problem, she still works in the same place. But she didn't attempt to hurt me. I am telling you, there's something wrong with people in this industry.
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Roger Roger
6/12/2021 10:50:58 am
Dentists Suck: Hopefully you are crushed to death today in a metal twisting fiery car crash. You are without a doubt just a clipped piece of foreskin.
Teeth92
6/4/2021 02:01:17 pm
Don’t give up. Do something that changes your situation. I know student loans are not dischargable. But maybe you can sell your partnership. Or move. Any change might help. Sadly, I hear this stories more frequently nowadays.
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Hugo
6/17/2021 12:37:11 pm
Will the admin please stop that absolute prick who goes by dentists suck from posting. There isn’t a single person here who gives a dangling cock about his TMJ issues. What a utter twat this guy is. P.s dentist here who retired at 40 because it’s the worst profession that ever existed
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Dentists suck
6/19/2021 09:44:08 am
Another dimwit. Buddy, read what's up there. It says dentistry sucks. You don't like it, leave! No one forced you to read this blog. What a moron. Where's your dentistry rocks blog? Go write one yourself. Retired at 40? Were you giving a silver spoon or did you con your way to retirement? What's the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of politicians? liars. Dentists? con men. That's right.
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Layzeebum
6/19/2021 02:44:42 pm
Let’s see.-
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Dentists suck
6/25/2021 02:40:57 pm
I think medical doctors can cross over and do some dental work. Just take a few classes. Other professionals can do the same thing. Dental school should have a higher standard of acceptance. Do not accept dimwits with philosophy, psychology degrees. The District Attorney should also play a role in this. They need to do a better job in prosecuting these "deadly dentists." Type in "deadly dentistry junior story" in google and you'll know what i'm talking about. Roughly 1000 patients have died since 2010? And you don't think this industry is full of money hungry dimwits? I don't know maybe criminals pretending to be dimwits. Who knows.
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Layzeebum
6/26/2021 08:16:47 am
Shhhh DS,
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Dentists suck
6/26/2021 09:03:36 am
You're in denial. There are only two types of people that work in this industry: 1) incompetent dimwits, and 2) con artists. Roughly 1000 have died since 2010? I'd like to see more dentists in prison. Derek Chauvin received 22.5 years for ACCIDENTALLY killing someone. He imo isn't a bad guy. He just made a costly mistake. Over 90% of you guys DELIBERATELY harm your patients. You are the real bad guys. Over 90% of you can not produce good fruit. The lady that tried to reduce my vertical dimension deliberately, you think she can produce good fruit? Heck no. She'll produce murderous fruits. Does she know that? That lady must genuinely repent. Over 90% of you guys should repent.
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PJ dentist
6/26/2021 03:41:49 pm
Just wondering DS who will you go to when you have dental pain? Are you just going to try and tough it out and get severely ill or will you break down and go see the family veterinarian? You are too comical.
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Layzeebum
6/26/2021 07:29:09 pm
You can reverse a loss of vertical D.
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Jerry
6/28/2021 11:03:37 am
Hey DS, you probably would end up getting raped in prison for being a bad dentist.
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Dentists suck
7/3/2021 06:25:21 pm
Speaking of bad money hungry dentists, what about Dr. John Riehs. 12 crowns? LOL. That's a con man on a mission. Accidental or otherwise, did the fake doc get any jail time? No. Zero jail time. How many years did Derek get? 22.5. That's the problem. Guys like Roger Roger will do that to you because he is a miserable, envious, and jealous person. Over 90% of dentists are like Roger Roger. So start questioning your dentists otherwise you will end up like that poor kid Junior. Rest his soul. Where's the justice? I don't see any.
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Jerry
7/8/2021 12:01:55 am
Why should we take any comments from a rapist seriously? Shame on you.
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Dentists suck
7/10/2021 08:23:34 pm
Nope. No shame here. Shame is surely yours for not checking the position of the tm joints. Schools don't teach you this? That's a shame. Perhaps they are also negligent. Position of the tm joint is the most important part of dentistry and the schools don't teach the students on how to properly check it? If i were you, i'd ask for my money back.
@Dentists Suck
8/9/2021 12:38:31 pm
Fact: you were born into a weird fundamentalist Christiana family. Fact.
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Tmj
7/10/2021 09:57:36 pm
Hey DS, you suck. Every profession or occupation has a share of bad actors and bad outcomes. There are over 200,000 dentists in the USA and you think that 180,000 plus are shameful and just like your examples. I will believe you if you can site 180,000 more examples of bad dentistry. Go get a life.
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@Dentistry Sucks
8/10/2021 07:44:10 am
Here is only a partial list of murderers and criminals who belong to weird forms of Christianity, like Dentistry Sucks:
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SeptoLido
8/10/2021 10:04:30 am
Christianity in its purest and accurate form is never the problem. The religion of atheism is the problem of all time. Why are Atheists always hateful and dishonest?
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@SeptoLido
8/10/2021 10:50:45 am
I myself am a Christian. I'm definitely not an atheist. But Dentistry Sucks is a weird Christian, the kind that is depraved. He's angry because his mother and Harold Camping told him the world was coming to an end so he never made plans for his future.
Dentists suck
8/17/2021 04:30:42 pm
"Why are Atheists always hateful and dishonest?"
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Dentists suck
8/17/2021 04:48:07 pm
"I myself am a Christian. I'm definitely not an atheist."
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SeptoLido
10/18/2021 07:14:49 pm
If you don't end up in Hell, nobody will.
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Dentists suck
9/12/2021 01:23:05 pm
Before i leave this wicked blog full of wicked fake doctors, i'd like to ask these fake doctors what in your opinion cause(s) bruxism? Please state whether your opinion is evidence based or just bunch of made up theories. Why am i bringing up bruxism? Because many women suffer from this condition. And they are told lies. Bruxism ties very much to TMJ. Now if you see heavy bruxism, one thing you'll notice is that bruxers all have short back molars. What does that mean? It means they are missing heavy posterior vertical dimension. Let's hear your opinion. Then i'll give you the opinion of Dr. John W. Witzig through his clinical observation.
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JP
9/13/2021 07:37:33 am
There is no need to give you an opinion as it sounds like you have all the answers. By the way, I have examined many bruxers who do not have short molars.
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Small Business
9/18/2021 02:01:51 pm
Hey guys can we just all now start ignoring Dentists suck’s comments so he can disappear? The more we give him attention the more he talks. I miss reading reality bites, septolido, giving up…etc’s sharing on dentistry. Don’t let some creep/loser who got nothing better to do in life ruin this blog. Crossing fingers. I felt so much comfort reading the comments of the dentists when I have a hard time.
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Danster
9/20/2021 04:39:45 pm
Agree SB,
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Small Business
10/2/2021 06:54:19 pm
Anything works I guess. Even complaints of daily struggles give me comfort for some reason
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SeptoLido
10/18/2021 07:16:28 pm
I just got finished getting rid of an irritating denture patient. Couldn't please this idiot no matter what we did.
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New Dentist
10/18/2021 08:24:54 pm
Any new dentists here? I am really struggling in corporate its so much pressure... I would love to hear some stories from new grads maybe we can all relate.. Does it get any better? I just feel like I'm being rushed almost all the time and its hard to find the balance of quality and efficiency
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Danster
10/19/2021 12:29:25 pm
SL, congratulations on the denture patient. Been there many times.
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Layzeebum
10/26/2021 10:26:19 am
Does anyone have any thoughts about scanners vs PVS Impressions?
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Sally
11/3/2021 06:02:53 pm
I am not even a dentist. I only worked at a dental office as an appointment coordinator. And I could not take that anymore because the schedule is so full, I don’t even have time to drink water, so don’t ever expect a break. I looked at the scheudle and I really feel bad about the dentists too even they make way more than me.
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Dentists suck
11/4/2021 05:06:50 pm
"A new theory based on extensive clinical observations has been proposed that looks at all this differently. In a bold departure from traditional viewpoints, certain members of the "FJO camp" have observed and therefore proposed that it is not mental stress that is the exclusive etiological agent in initiating bruxism; rather, two other factors act as primary causes: function of the muscles of mastication at an improperly shortened length and irritation of the nervous tissue of the bilaminar zone by a condyle that is superiorly and posteriorly displaced and riding off the disc! The bruxism is just as damaging to the joint structures and plays just as much havoc with the muscles, but it is initiated by condylar displacement, not just stress. " Witzig, The Clinical Management of the Basic Maxillofacial Orthopedic Appliances, Vol. III pg. 210-211.
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Dentists suck
12/11/2021 10:21:41 am
Since joint displacement is the problem. Is there a pain free position for the joints? Of course there is. Don't know what you're taught in school or perhaps you pretend not to know but according to Dr. Witzig, "The Gelb 4/7 position is both the ideal rest position and the ideal fully interdigitated occlusion position. The rest position usually will be observed in the general populace of healthy patients to be even further down and forward than the functional occlusal position is, although the difference is not great and more due to tranlation than to rotation." Witzig, The Clinincal Management of Basic Maxillofacial Orthopedic Appliances, Vol III, pg. 89.
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EP
1/5/2022 08:34:12 am
Can you believe that the S&P 500 was up 27% in 2021 and Trump wasn’t the President! I thought only he could do things like that.
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SeptoLido
1/5/2022 08:57:53 am
If you're implying Biden had anything to do with it, then you have a gallon of hog cum for brain matter. Let's go Brandon.
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EP
1/5/2022 08:54:46 pm
Trump gave himself the credit whenever the market went up. This was just sarcasm. Hopefully you invest in the stocks regardless of who is President. Happy New Year to you too.
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EP
1/6/2022 02:57:20 pm
Hey SL. You said on 1/13/2021 that you have never liked dentistry from day 1. My question is why are you still practicing. I started practicing in 1993 and retired in 2016. I didn’t hate it until the last 5 years but it was the best decision I’ve made. Think about it cause you sound miserable.
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Anon
5/16/2022 10:36:00 am
Curious, why did you start to hate it in the last 5 years?
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EP
1/12/2022 07:07:18 am
Irish,Catholic and humble. What’s not to like about Joe Biden.
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EP
5/17/2022 07:55:35 am
I’ve been blessed with a great wife and kids. I was also lucky to be a super saver and invested a high percentage(40%) of income throughout my career. As I became financially independent I wanted to spend more and more time with family and friends and running a practice got in the way. All the insurance PPO crap and patient and staff demands just seemed to compound. When you get to the point where you don’t have to work, it’s a lot easier to pull the plug. My 26 year old self would never have imagined retiring at 50, but I love the new gig and honestly do not miss a thing about practice. I wish they would teach more about personal finances in dental school because it does give you the freedom to make a choice. Keep working if you love it or even like it, but if you don’t want to do it anymore then you might as well punt and move on.
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Don Davies
6/20/2022 01:52:55 am
Well I don't think it's true. I think dentistry is a wonderful profession which helps lots of people out there even the dental practitioners themselves! I'd like to give praise to our Children's dentist over at Rome GA, for doing such a great job on our kids!
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Calculus
6/20/2022 07:17:21 am
Oh it is 100% true for the vast majority of dentists(probably over 80%). Dentists by and large do an amazing job but what is the most amazing thing is doing the difficult work while having to act as if everything is ok. We do this not to be fake but to try to keep our patients calm. Nobody wants to go to a stressed out dentist. Showing your real emotions would be disastrous for business. The 20% of dentists who don’t feel this way every day at the office are amazing to me but there is not enough of them to take care of the millions of patients in our country and the billions in our world. Basically, the stressed out vast majority has to act like the minority. It is sad reality but it is real. If you don’t think it’s real I encourage you to enroll in dental school and give it a try. After awhile you will likely change your view.
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7/25/2022 11:54:38 pm
Thanks for sharing such a informative blog! Become a Good Life Member Free For 7 Days & Enjoy Thousands of Deals at Your Favourite Restaurants, Plus Daily Entries To Win a Luxury Cars & So Much More.
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D3Dropout
8/8/2022 11:48:31 am
I was just kicked out of dental school after failing 2 classes a month ago. It's been devastating to me. All my great friends I made, lost instantly. Since I was out of state I have to move back to FL and live with my parents while I figure out a way to take care of this $330,000 debt I'm stuck with.
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Courtney
8/15/2022 06:32:33 am
Your mom or dad should have told you not to go to dental school. The new economics of the profession make no sense. I've been a dentist since 1998 who recently retired from the profession.....finally.
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Ryan Stephens
10/5/2022 08:05:14 am
Getting kicked out of school is the best thing that has ever happened to you. Thank your lucky stars. Been practicing for 15yrs, worst decision of my entire life.
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bryan marty
1/24/2023 09:12:38 am
Dr. Stephens, can you elaborate?
Teeth92
8/15/2022 07:00:35 am
Congratulations Courtney
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Neil Trotter
11/10/2022 08:18:32 am
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Dr.DoItAll
12/9/2022 09:04:33 am
Been in dentistry for 15 years. Have four practices. Do very well. I used the money to buy tons of real estate, over $30M worth. I love dentistry but recently the patient's are bullshit, the staff have become lazy has hell... maximizing sick leave, vacation pay, and using Covid exposure as an excuse every week. I'm sorry Suzie you went to an orgie last weekend and now you may have been exposed to Covid. Now because of this I have to work harder due to your negligence. For this reason I have to overstaff. This week had 7 staff members our due to "illness." Their brains go to shit after Thanksgiving just thinking about the holiday pay, vacation and the end of year bonus which they expect to be bigger than last year.
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Teeth92
12/9/2022 09:19:14 am
Dr.DoitAll, some of the best advice I’ve ever read pertaining to being a DDS
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bryan
1/23/2023 02:57:22 pm
As a patient, I want to say **THANK YOU** to all the dentists for taking care of my teeth over the years. I've never complained about dental work but I will also continue to spread the message of being more thankful for our dentists. If I could summarize the comments on this long thread, I'd say it likes this:
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1/23/2023 10:29:28 pm
Thanks, I am really happy with these great tips! We are a luxury branding and marketing agency based in London serving clients across the globe.
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Petros Kyres
2/4/2023 03:09:25 pm
I agree with everyone here, I've been doing dentistry for more than 15 years, and in a couple of years I will call it a day and become probably a secretary or study something else... choosing dentistry was the biggest mistake of my life. The suffer and anxiety everyday is unbearable, I agree with other colleagues here, DON'T DO IT.
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Mac
3/1/2023 11:32:00 am
Amen to the 10th power.
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Courtney
2/27/2023 10:33:15 am
In case anyone is still out there.
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Peter
4/30/2023 08:15:38 am
Many of you guys need a serious reprogramming. I get the crippling debt load, but you are a minister of health. That is not a position of luxury. It’s a sacred trust to help humanity. This is the highest form of living. The highest of heaven became a servant and washed his apostles feet. He gave and served. Living for others is a characteristic of a higher civilization that all of us are going to potentially live in. Are you going to come? There is some luxury playboy ? You will be screened! And demerited. Be the best dentist you can be! This is all temporary!
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11/28/2023 08:20:52 pm
Dentistry plays a crucial role in our overall health, and regular dental check-ups are essential for maintaining a healthy smile. Dentists are not just there to fix cavities; they also help prevent serious issues like gum disease and oral cancer. In fact, good oral health has been linked to better overall health, including reduced risk of heart disease and diabetes.
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